Religulous
Among the very many stupid movies coming out in theaters this one has caught my eye. Religilous, attempts to show people how stupid religion is and how it can’t really be true because its so ‘out there’, in the trailer he even goes so far as to compare God to Santa. This truly shows the ignorance of our times, I really don’t know how this man could be so obtuse. I did notice however, in the trailer, they don’t show him interviewing any theologians, I personally would have liked to see him get into an argument with Scott Han, or Even a learned priest, even one of our every own FI’s. Although I know it’s only the first trailer of the movie and I realize that they’re not showing us the entire movie, he tends to be talking to either crazy people, or your average uneducated, catechized person.
On his site, which I don’t suggest you go to, is full of all sorts language and horrible blasphemy, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this guy was a mason. In fact I would find it very interesting, because it would expose his agenda and only further my point that this guy may very well believe in God himself but attempts to bring himself above God and stomp on him. Making movies is an art and, like all modern art, it is becoming deformed and promoting a relative train of thought. So in other words… its not a good movie.
It’s pretty crazy. Most of the top ‘Atheists’ aren’t actually atheists, but actually believe in the existence of God. The don’t question His existence, but rather, question His supremacy. I’m currently reading Marx and Satan, which opens up the interesting case of Karl Marx’s (The father of communism and socialism) involvement in Satanism and the Occult. Clearly, he believed in God, but wished to dethrone Him.
Gosh this is so sad!
Lord help us!
Bill Maher was recently in some trouble for his thoughts on religion which he made public on his show. He has always pushed the envelope looking for that hit or miss. He suffers from the sin that sends most people to hell. He does his “research” as he sees fit. He tries to get people to see things his way, and to “open” their eyes. There is no doubt in my mind that Satan has a special place in h**l for people like him. He may not believe in h**l right now, but he will sooner or later.
Aside from getting angery which is only normal, maybe we caould pray a Novena to St. Claire of Assisi that he will have a change of heart, and of course that his movie will bomb.
Ah, thanks for the insight, Skeet. No need to worry about blocking out ‘hell.’ As long as your discussing it in the sense of the place, not as a swear. Alot of these people are off the edge of reason, blinded by sin.
What is this world coming to? Very sad.
Welcome to reality people. If your invisible friend is so real, go pray to him to strike bill with a lightning bolt. I’m sure he’ll do it……
SB,
I’ll take a bite at your “real world”, strike down Bill with lightning and what not, so on and so forth. Apparently you are neither Christian, nor are well versed in Christian doctrine. As for your idea of praying to God to strike down Bill, we don’t believe in that, nor advocate that. Our God is not a vengeful God, nor does He strike down anyone with any sort of natural or supernatural method. That was the Old Testament God, and the reason why the Old Testament God did that was because His chosen people kept on disobeying the law set down by Him through Moses. Jesus Christ came (God’s Son) to bring mercy to sinners and to fulfill prophesies of the Old Testament. He was the SAVIOR, to bring mercy to the world for repentant sinners. So no longer was there a need for fire, brimstone, plagues, Angel’s of Death, frogs, Blood Rivers, turning people into salt, so on and so forth. I’m not saying that if God so choose to strike down Bill with lightning He couldn’t do it, Jesus also came to save Bill as well.
For your attack on us living in the real world. We do my friend, I can say that I spend more time in your real world, than one who hides in cyberspace. Jesus told us to be in the world but not of it. So your attack on both Lightning and us living in thee real world hold no water, and therefore you are wrong sir. I will say that we do need to pray more, for the conversion of people like Bill, and like you…
SB,
I must say, in rather fewer words than Skeet, that we do live in a reality. I wonder what you will think on your death, when your entire life rolls back before you, and you realize how you willingly replaced God’s written law in your heart, with something that made you comfortable during the fleeting moment.
Though God may actually wish to end the misery and disgrace we cause Him through sin, our Blessed Lady holds back His hand, constantly begging for the Grace to distribute to those who have the will to repent.
Welcome to reality? well thanks for inviting us to your reality but, I think I’ll stick to Truth. Reality is not relitive, if there is no God then everything makes no sense, because anything goes, it just not logical.
How does anybody know what “god” wants?! From a bronze age book?! Come on! Lets be honest, if there is a god, nobody is in a position to speak on it’s behalf, especially to tell others what good and what’s bad.
I enjoy Bill Maher’s perspectives. I don’t always agree with him but he is always thought provoking. I will have to see the movie before I deconstruct and criticize it.
John,
If you feel this way about God, take a look at it from this angle. Who are you to challenge over 4,000 years of Religion? Even though there have been an assortment of Paganism, and the True Religion, people still believed in the existence of a Deity. Suddenly, after such a long period of time, you dare to challenge one of man’s fundamental beliefs, the Belief in God. (What harm is there in doing good and following the words of Christ? Answer me that.)
Thanks for allowing anyone to post on this board.
I quote Skeet’s reply to SB
“Our God is not a vengeful God, nor does He strike down anyone with any sort of natural or supernatural method. That was the Old Testament God, and the reason why the Old Testament God did that was because His chosen people kept on disobeying the law set down by Him through Moses.” We’re still talking about just one god here though, correct? Were his plagues in the Old Testament not vengeance on those that disobeyed him?
To Master Paul Xavier. While reading up on Marx, did you happen to catch the part about Hitler being raised Catholic?
That “trouble” you mentioned Bill Maher getting in recently was concerning a comment he made about a photograph of the Pope during his recent visit to the US. In the photo the Pope is seen walking and waving next to President Bush with the sun shining brightly behind them rendering the Pope’s garb fairly transparent. Bill Maher stated that the Pope should have to wear a slip. If that offends you, then you need to lighten up a bit in my opinion.
By the way, nonbelievers have been around just as long as people of faith. Read up on Protagoras, Aristophanes, and Aristotle in Ancient Greece to name but a few. Atheists may not follow “the words of Christ” but you are wrong in assuming that we don’t “do good” or have morals. We do it because it’s the right thing to do, not out of fear of eternal damnation.
Steve,
Many people are raised Catholic, but it doesn’t mean they live it to it’s fullest. Karl Marx was actually a Christian himself, before he turned around and went into Satanism.
Actually, it’s not an issue of laughing something off, but rather a lack of respect in the way things are said. Plus people tend to take any advantage they can get to comment negatively about the Catholic Church.
True, everyone has the laws of God inscribed in their heart. It is common for people, even non Christians, to say certain things are wrong, and others are right. But what we are saying, about Atheists not being good, is that they are working against the positive effects of Christianity. Catholicism is the true religion, and promotes peace and love. What its members do is a different story. Sin is everywhere, even in the Members of the Mystical Body of Christ. The reason Religion is being shunned, is because people expect members of organized religion to be ’sinless.’ We are all human. There shall always be sin.
WHO CARES WHAT THIS BILL HAS TO SAY IT DOES NOT MATTER. IF YOU BELIVE THEN YOU BELIVE. PEOPLE WILL WATCH IT AND AT THE VERY LEAST WILL GET PEOPLE THINKING. QUESTIONS ARE NOT ALWAYS A BAD THING AND SOME PEOPLE WILL STRENGHTEN THERE FAITH AND IT MIGHT LEAD SOME IN A NEW DIRECTION. BUT IT DOES NOT MATTER EVERY THING WILL WORK OUT IN THE END.
You guys will be the embarrassment of your athiest children and grand children. The days of the powerful religion/faith/church that lives on stupidity and ignorance of the masses is over. You can have a morality and meaning without having an invisible friend.
I was raised in a very religious household, and I now firmly believe that organized religion is founded on fear, and is a tool to control the masses. In a very short time, religion as we know it will disappear, and mankind will be better for it.
I dont get angry or look down on religious people, I just understand the power of fear (of hell, or social stigma) and the control it has over people, and I truly have pity for them. They havent yet been able to grasp the idea that you dont need “God” to not have a fear of death.
Besides, if you think about it, what is religion if you boil it down? A set of rules. You have to do A to get B. You have to confess sin to go to heaven. You have to praise god every sunday (why does an omnipotent, all-powerful god need to be praised? Does he have a low self esteem?) Im much more inclined to believe that humans are part of a universe where life is connected in ways we dont understand (prayer) and theres no rules on how that should be done.
And, finally, an eternal punishment for mistakes made during an non-infinite lifetime is the same as sentencing someone to death for stealing a pack of gum. I refuse to believe that’s true. In order to deserve an eternity of hell, you’d have to murder everyone on the planet from the beginning of time to the end.
PS) To elaborate a bit on the role of religion in history: It served it’s purpose in the social/evolutionary track of humanity as a moral compass, and it’s mythical punishment (hell) was so severe, most people dared not go against it. This, of course, served humanity well (established stronger families, social groups, order, health, education, etc). As human history progressed, the need for religion has understandably diminished (separation of church and state, for example) and over time it will eventually completely diminish, and replaced with a race of humans more intelligent for it. However, our brains are beginning to outgrown religion, and human survival is now the moral compass. We, as a race, know better than to murder because it makes for a worse social situation, and therefore, the eventual demise of humanity. We dont need moses or jesus or the pope telling us what to do anymore. We get it.
At least, I hope we “get it”! The problem now is people are clinging so closely to religion still view religion as the moral compass, and since religious leaders are full of “sin” (aka, behavior that will eventually lead to the demise of humanity) that it’s beginning to backfire. The sooner organized religion fades, and people realize we need to govern ourselves for the sake of ourselves, the better off we’ll be.
First of all, thank you for being forward in your comment. Now, out of quick questioning, I do not see mankind as a whole making any progress without religion. Let’s look at the world’s first TRUE System of Government which has eliminated religion from itself. Communism. You seem to proclaim that,
So, if that is so, then how can you account for the millions of people killed, murdered, and butchered by the Soviet Forces. (Atheistic in every way and design.) Now adays, people tend to look at Religion as something which enslaves the mind, or as you put it, controls the masses through fear. Fear of what? Fear of Hell? If God truly exists, ought we not to fear His Justice? It all boils down to a question for you, do you believe in God or not? And from there, you can begin to make judgements and statements as to what you truly ‘believe.’ I’m sick of you Atheists pointing out how Religion is a failure, when you do not even have one example, of a ‘flawless’ Atheistic System. This world is an imperfect world, thus it cannot remain flawless. Hence, in your attack upon me, I can basically turn the attack against you, simply changing the word religion to atheism. Get a better argument, or don’t comment at all.
Oh, and here is a link to a book which you may find interesting about your ‘ideal’ atheistic society. Black Book of Communism. I’d like to see some facts on how religion is so ‘wrong’ for ‘misleading’ the people, before you start your own atheistic Jihad against religion.
Roe,
If anything, I might say the embarrassment (or might I say ’shame?’) will be upon your children, when they see how their forefathers blindly turned away from God just for the fleeting pleasures and happiness of the present moment. Tell me, where do your ideas for ‘morality’ come from? Ok, and no copying the Ten Commandments or anything that pertains to ‘Religion.’ Ha, your ‘morality’ is like that in “Animal Farm,” it changes along with whatever you feel at the moment: The pigs took over the farm and made a set of ‘laws’ to govern all the animals:
1. Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3. No animal shall wear clothes.
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5. No animal shall drink alcohol.
6. No animal shall kill any other animal.
7. All animals are equal.
As the story goes along, they change it along to whatever satisfies their needs:
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets (the pigs started to sleep in the beds, so the changed the law so that it would be permissible.)
5. No animal shall drink alcohol to excess (the pigs also started drinking.)
6. No animal shall kill any other animal without cause. (The pigs needed a way to get rid of their enemies which were animals.)
So, what does this teach? Basically that whatever floats your boat is permissible. Morals and Morality DO NOT change. They are always the same. Murder is always Murder, Rape is always Rape, we cannot ‘change’ our morality or have one ‘aside’ from what the enemies of man (organized Religion [Sarcasm intended]) have set down. (Not necessarily set down, for God’s Law is the Moral Law.)
hey bud as for communism, we will have a few hiccups we always have we always will. If we were all ants communism would work amazingly but we are not we have induvidual freedoms and choice so it never will.
What if you’re wrong and you spent our your life worshiping silliness? Leave life today, you don’t have to die before you live.
Regarding post #19
Wow Xavier…such an angry post! Did I come off as attacking? I hope not. I was just expressing my opinion, and I feel I had every right to post it. There really is no need to imply I’m starting a “jihad.” I just think religion served it’s evolutionary purpose, and we’ll eventually see its end. Its not a bad thing, its actually a good thing. If we as humans cling to religion, we will likely never improve. But humans are slow to change, and thats okay. No need to get angry.
PS) I already answered your question about morality in my original post: “Morality” as defined by religion (sin) is simply a vehicle or set of rules to follow (10 commandments as an example) that ensures the survival of humanity as a species. It’s actually quite hard to find anything most people considered “moral” that also doesnt directly relate to this. Survival, or better yet, the improvement of the species is what the moral code follows.
Think about it, what is considered immoral? Lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, adultery, abuse of children, drunkeness, pollution….ALL of which do nothing but break down a healthy structure of society and causes the human species to not evolve properly, or not as quickly. Religion is just a vehicle to enforce and support these notions, and it was necessary thousands of years ago when humans were less intelligent than they are now.
And you can see the “moral” shift change, even from Old to New testament. The “old” laws were much more physical and less intellectual: No eating pork, stay away from women when they’re menstruating, stone adulterers, etc. The “new” morality of the new testament is “forgive one another” etc etc
I realize I wasnt as clear as I could have been…let’s make it simple:
Morality does not equal god-sent. (aka, God’s law is the moral law)
Morality equals what humans have learned makes life healthier, better, and sustainable for everyone. Because religion has claimed ownership of these characteristics over the thousands of years, they now think that it’s as if god gave us these rules, when really, these are just the rules of nature, and existed long before man decided to scribble the word god on a parchment. And the proof is: if you take the invisible daddy out of the equation (god), these laws STILL exist.
Wow. it’s not a good movie. have you seen it yet? Of course not, you are TRAINED to feel that way without thinking.
Why does he need to argue with a theologian? It is not necessary to have a degree in Hobgoblinry to dispute them. Just a basic understanding of History, Biology, Mythology and common sense will do it. Actually common sense alone should be enough.
Yes, this movie probably does show the ignorance of our times. The ability for modern humans to ignore facts and submit to Bronze age mythologies at the expense of the progress truly learned men have made for the benefit of humanity.
Religion is just a product of our mental evolution process. All species, through adaptation, develop defense mechanisms against threats or obstacles in their environment with the same very important goal: Survival. Humans are no different, we gather in cities for protection and community, we create families and raise our children properly so they can continue on after we pass, we help one another, we seek out love and relationships, we gather resources, we crave knowledge and power, we want healthy societies, and we have morals and ethics, all these things come naturally to us. Religious people frequently make the mistake of attributing these noble behaviors to the soul or to a divine source, yet they fail to notice that these are nothing more than survival instincts. It is just nature taking its course. With morals and guidelines (such as the ones in the bible) we can have more prosperous, healthy, and just societies, without the need of a divine explanation. These things are built into all species, especially the more complex ones like dolphins and chimpanzees. Even some more simple-minded creatures like penguins and certain types of insects display faithfulness to one partner and care for their siblings. It is common sense,it is nature, it is simply survival, not God. In the same way, our then ignorant human minds conjured up spiritual thoughts and supernatural beliefs, concepts of the soul and the afterlife in order to, not only explain the unknowns around us, but to ultimately defeat the biggest threat we faced, our own human death. Religion became the tool or trait we developed to deal with the awareness of our own death. I tell you the truth, if your dog or cat had an advanced and complex brain such as yours and was aware of its own existence, it would also regularly attend church, just for the mere fact that it would not want to cease to exist. The belief that humans have a soul or a spirit that will live on beyond the flesh gives people a false sense of peace and power over death. They no longer have that threat in front of them and so they tend to ignore it and dismiss it as just something trivial and transitional. I could only hope that were true, but as far as anyone has seen, death is the ultimate end. There is no proof of life after death, there is only proof of death and that is all. There is no more proof of resurrection or transubstantiation than there is proof of reincarnation, there is no more proof of Jehova or the Holy Spirit than there is of Zeus or Baal, and there is no more proof of Zion than there is of Narnia. All religions in the world and in history claim miraculous signs and wonders under their name, yet at the same time claim they are the only true religion. How is that not senseless? It is this simple fact that disproves all religions. Do not be so arrogant as to hastily dismiss all other religions to an illusion or trick from Satan devised to fool mankind because I assure you, they can believe the same thing about your religion. Regardless of how much faith you may now have, as history goes on, as science, medicine and technology advance exponentially and as nations around the world continue to come together in the name of peace, prosperity and equality for all, the need for supernatural beliefs to explain away the unknown or the feared will soon dissipate. Believe me you, if your Christ had lived in this century instead of 2k years ago, yes he would have had a following now also, but he would have never accomplished such a vast and long lasting impact on humanity. Said impact, by the way, has been steadily declining for the last 50 years in all churches around the world. Soon, religion will finally take its corresponding place on the bookshelf, under the sci-fi section.
The next step in our mental evolution is upon us. Very soon we will leave behind supernatural thoughts and hopes which now clog up so much of our human imagination, creativity and reason for new thoughts of world peace, equality and sufficiency for all. The happiness that so many religious people are eagerly awaiting in heaven will soon be here on earth, and it will be real. Too bad many still ignorantly and arrogantly cling to their foolish and futile beliefs, leaving them excluded from the one and only chance at happiness, life. For how can you truly be happy and at peace here, when you are taught to store up treasures in heaven and seek your rest there?
EB, I beg to differ with you on your opinions. There is no proof of transubstantiation and the resurrection? Might I direct you to do some research on the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano? Mysteries of the Bible, by the History Channel, has documented some interesting facts on the Shroud of Turin, as well.
I don’t believe people who cling to this life as apposed to “storing up treasures in heaven” are happier. People who practice the self-control and self-lessness of a Christian lifestyle are happier in this life. Take Hollywood for example.
For those who don’t believe in God, no explaination is sufficient. For those who do, no explaination is neccessary.
I think this says it all.
CJ, good points, however it is quite unfair to select some of the most self-centered and possibly unhappy people on earth (Hollywood) as an example of people who cling to this life. I should remind you that a lot of people in that business are some sort of Christian and/or at least believe in God. Also I never said everyone without religion or God is happy. Life can be very cruel to anyone and many people have different situations that may make them unhappy or depressed all their lives, and you can find people like that on both sides of the religious/atheist debate. Regarding the eucharist miracle you cite, eventhough there was a scientific study confirming it to be human flesh and blood, there is no conclusive proof that it is the flesh and blood of Jesus nor that it actually transformed before the priest’s eyes, for all I know that priest could have been delusional or could have planted the flesh and blood himself. By the way, Catholic priests aren’t really at the top of my TRUST list, so a fantastic story like that is hard for me to trust. Anyway, like I said in my argument above, you really can’t use miraculous signs and wonders to prove your God is the true God, since there are countless miracles in all religions under the name of many different gods.
EB, of course I don’t expect you to believe in these miracles I mentioned. I said so in my previous post.
When it comes to belief in God, what proof do you have that He does not exist? Can you tell me why you don’t believe in Him? Evolution isn’t a good argument against religion. Many people believe in both God and evolution.
Wow you guys are so sad and pathetic, this movie is the most beneficial thing to hit theatres for your kind. You really have been brainwashed and suffer mental deficiencies to believe in this religion crap. Enter Reality and leave your faith behind to see what really exists
I must ask in response to the original post (before we got realllyyy off topic),
If the people in this movie are really like this, ie uneducated about your religion, then what is being taught in the churches?
Answer : This is WHAT the clerics and clergy are teaching but then you complain that this isn’t what you meant.
Well, sorry, but you reap what you sow, and you can’t have it both ways.
Yes, actually, it’s the Church’s fault for not properly educating the people. I’m not upset over the fact that this guy is questioning people off the street who (not so surprisingly) don’t know their faith. My issue is with the fact that the guy actually has the nerve to take on religion.
Yes, it must be terrible living in a country where free speech is protected by law.
The problem with religion being off limits is that then anybody can do anything in the name of religion (and they have) and woah…off limits to ridicule, must show respect…it’s religion dontcha know.
…..”As the story goes along, they change it along to whatever satisfies their needs”….. Master Paul Xavier
You mean when like when Pope Pius IX decided to officially make Mary a virgin in 1854 despite 1800 years of debate, and 5000 years of pagan virgin-birth legends from all over the world?
Trust the catholics to take hypocrisy to the next level – they always do….
This movie isn’t an attack on the existance of god. It’s a movie that challenges peoples beliefs in the ridiculous stories contained in the bible and the multitude of people who blindly follow their interpreted meanings. I think if a movie like this makes you mad, then you really aren’t a true believer to begin with. Fact of the matter is, religion has, is, and will continue to hold back the progression of human kind for many years to come. Or maybe just until we’re visited by aliens.
Sweet. Nothing makes you realize how deep the denial goes than peoples blogs and ’support flock’ for make-believe.
The internet and outside world are proving to be quite a threat to beliefs that can only survive in an echo chamber. This is the inevitable effect of world wide communication.
What’s supposed to be obtuse about comparing god to Santa Claus?
Seems pretty apposite to me.
-Euthyphro
I will look forward to this movie. I don’t think there are any good religions .
“Master” Paul Xavier….lol.
So, how did you earn that title?
Isn’t Maher’s “Religilous” the Hollywood left’s counter to the right’s “An American Carol”? Both due for release on October 3.
A non-beleif in organized religion does not equal ignorance.
Christians who think that are really the ignorant, close minded ones.
Get over yourselves, your religion isn’t all powerful and all knowing.
you all are so narrow minded, if you would have watched larry king last knight you would know what you are talking about, you havnt seen the movie so why are you able to say its not a good movie, the bible was created to give people morals and to give people something to be afraid of if they mess up, truely i dont believe in god, and go ahead and call me uneducated, i went to church for a long time and quite going because i got tired of being lied to, i was a part of everything in my old church until i found out it was a sham. even if maher was a masson can you read minds how the hell can you tell what his objectives are unless you ask him your self you self righteous arrigant jerks, why do you always put people down because they dont believe what you do, he isnt singleing you all out and talking bad about all of you now is he, so what gives you the right, if you dont want to see the movie dont see it you dont have to sit there on your computers and piss and moan about it
While I am sure that this movie will employ the some propagandist techniques that Expelled did (Expelled was MIND MELTING in it’s stupidity), there will be more truth in Maher’s words.
I for one think religion is a plague on this planet, a brainwashing disease of the mind that deludes people and causes them to commit horrible crimes.
monkey:
That’s because it is much easier to explain why an ancient cultural mass delusion exists than it is to explain why something that we can’t see, touch, taste, or feel (anymore than we can anything else paranormal) exists.
Even before I started doing lots of research on religions I could have competently argued for agnosticism simply by pointing at massive internal inconsistencies in nearly every religion.
“For those who don’t believe in God, no explaination is sufficient. For those who do, no explaination is neccessary.”
Truer words were never spoken.
For the skeptic, religion is impossible, improvable and accepted only on faith by believers.
For believers, skeptics are closed minded for not believing in something with sufficient evidence.
As the scientific method and the internet grow, however, we will see more and more people questioning the beliefs taught by their parents and their church, simply because our culture is growing towards “real truth”. What I mean to say here is that there is, was, and never will be sufficient evidence to disprove God’s existence.
HOWEVER: There is, was, and never will be sufficient evidence to prove the existence God either.
Something that a lot of people don’t realize is that you don’t have to disprove something to logically not believe in it. You simply have to have insufficient evidence for you TO believe in it.
Personally, I will freely admit there is a chance that a God exists (although Christianity, to me, appears to have enough evidence to suggest that it is a human created religion, with human created rules, many of which that don’t make sense anymore and have been revised, again by humans). I mean, Catholics need the catechism just to tell them what the Bible *means*.
That being said, even the chance which I admit that there is to having a God exist is extremely small. So small in fact, that it would be illogical to take any position except for atheism or agnosticism.
And please don’t bring up Pascal’s Wager, because I’ve seen it all too many times, and the arguments against it are all too easy.
RorySkrent:
That’s not really a fair evaluation of Christianity given that there are many flavors and many people (even those who belong to Catholicism) who believe a large amount of that is metaphorical.
But for those that do believe in those things – yeah, that’s a big part of the problem.
Religion seems to stem mostly from people trying to cope with the fact that, they too, will die one day.
Life is even more precious with no second chances. I hope you believe in life before death, not just after.
> “So in other words… its not a good movie”
Why have you seen it? Nothing like judging a book by its cover, eh?
The reason why Christianity seems so weak to the modern eyes is due to a quite simple fact. That Christians are humans, are capable of falling. Often enough, unbelievers tend to look at the Church and say, “Hey, they’re sinning.” People are not perfect, and until the end of time, there shall always be sin. People need to learn that there is no such then as the ‘perfect’ Christian. We are all sinners, and it is something we must constantly work at.
As for proving God’s existance, we cannot necessarily do so as we can prove the existance of…say…water. God created the Universe, hence it is impossible for the created to put the Creator under a microscope and prove His existance. Natural Law, and the Order of the Universe are actually quite enough to lead us to the idea that there is a higher enitity; but depending on how far one is willing to explore the clues God has laid down, he will never arrive at ‘God’ as the answer.
Faith is essential to belief, for we cannot fully comprehend and understand God’s Omnipotence. He is God, we are man, it is something we cannot and will not understand until we meet Him in Heaven.
People judge religion by saying it is a tool to control the masses. If that is so, why are other religions, such as the Aztec Religion, the Religions of the North American Indians, or even Budhism, held in higher light than Christianity?
@ Paul Xavier
Well for one they they actually practice what they preach. Christians and the likes use ‘God’ as a scape goat, just like they use the ‘devil’. Also there are not millions of ignorant followers of the aztecs or NA Indians. Those philosophies actually require some intelligence to follow. Instead we have the right-wingers telling us if we don’t vote for McCain we vote for the anti-christ, and there we have the problem.
Ha ha ha ha.
Thanks for the lulz guys. This entry is classic. The just as hilarious. Thanks again, I’m off to wipe the tears of laughter off my face.
Whoops.
It should say “The comments are just as hilarious.”
NOT
“The just as hilarious.”
Pat,
Christianity requires the use of our intellect. Not simply a follow tag along religion. Ever hear of Faith and Reason? That is what governs the Church, rather than simply using Faith like the Protestants, or simply Reason like you Atheists. Combining both we can attain knowledge of Our Supreme Savior.
CJ says, “EB, of course I don’t expect you to believe in these miracles I mentioned. I said so in my previous post.
When it comes to belief in God, what proof do you have that He does not exist? Can you tell me why you don’t believe in Him? Evolution isn’t a good argument against religion. Many people believe in both God and evolution.”
That old argument, huh? Science itself has an explanation for most of the things that the bible calls miraculous.
Skeet said, “Our God is not a vengeful God, nor does He strike down anyone with any sort of natural or supernatural method. That was the Old Testament God”
This directly contradicts the notion that the god of the Christian bible is perfect and unchanging.
Not quite Eric. Actually, God is the same in the Old and New Testaments. But, in the Old Testaments, man had sinned, and it was sin which barred man from God. God was vengeful and punished the sinner. With the coming of His Son, Christ, man was given a second chance. A chance to attain Heaven. With the help of the Son, and of His Blessed Mother, God’s hand is held back; for She petitions Him on behalf of her children (the human race), to show us mercy.
This is hilarious. Bill Maher makes a movie, a documentary about the absurdity that is religion, and you’re wailing, “what is the world coming to?” Yes, heaven forbid someone might criticise the mother church. Better were those days when such blasphemy would be swiftly handled by the Inquisition.
On the matter of Evil:
Can God stop evil? Does he want to?
If God is willing to stop evil, but cannot, God is not Omnipotent.
If God is capable, but unwilling, he is malevolent.
If God is capable and willing, whenst will this evil come?
If God is both incapable and unwilling, then why call him God?
-Epicurious
And heaven forbid if we complain about Bill Maher.
You can easily complain and criticize Religion and Catholicism, but whenever we complain or criticize you Atheists, it’s an entire different story.
So what do we have on each side? On the theistic side, we have a book, upon which the entire Christian faith is based. Without this book, there is no Christianity – period. In turn, modern Christianity relies on some key facts from this book: God is real, Jesus existed, he died for your sins, rose again, and will return someday in the future. You make these claims, then choose to live your life based on these claims – if these claims are false, then the basis for you life is false.
On the other side, we have reason/logic/evidence. The premise of evidence is that you make an observation, form a hypothesis about that observation, test your hypothesis, and then make a conclusion. Whether the conclusion is the same as your hypothesis almost doesn’t matter – its the experimentation and observation that makes science science. The reason for science’s very existence is the furthering of mankind, and in that process, destroying old science and building new science.
You ask me to disprove god, but the onus of proof is on you to prove a god. You can prove him any way you want to, but you have to prove him. It is not my job to prove his non-existence, just as it isn’t my job to prove the non-existence of gnomes, goblins, and little green men.
However, you could also ask me to prove my stance, and that is easy. I have the tool of scientific reasoning available to me, and thus can prove my views with evidence. Go to a museum, and observe the different human-like skeletons as they evolved through the ages. Observe the fish skeletons, replete with legs and lungs. This is my proof – and the decades of genetics, biology, chemistry, physics, and other scientific research.
What is your proof? You have a single book upon which EVERYTHING you believe is based. The bible is a book, simple as that – and its validity hasn’t been verified! Toss aside everything moral, spiritual, and fuzzy-feeling-related, and strip it down to its core values (which you seem to like so much) – TRUTH or FICTION.
Man has brought evil and sin upon himself. It is due to free will. God gave Man, and the Angels a chance to show their loyalties. Satan chose not to Serve God, and tempted man in order to break him away from God as well. Man, in being tempted, was given a chance to do what was right, and he failed. God DID NOT create evil. Rather, his creatures chose it with their free will.
Master Paul,
Your God can’t be examined under a microscope but, by your statement, is definitely a male. That is wierd to me. How can you possibly know this?
Can you imagine another planet in the universe that has life but not gender as we know them? I can (especially as their is genderless life here on earth.) How does your male god square with those possibly intelligent genderless alien beings?
I have more faith that such genderless intelligent beings exist than a God who is male and makes men (but not women) in his own image but forsakes other intelligent life in the universe. Sorry. Religion is pure malarky through and through.
This does not mean that no good has come from religion. I got some good things from religion when I was very young. But an awful lot of bad has come from religion too and the ratio of good to bad seems to be increasingly tilting the wrong way over time.
Ultimately, however, religion is dishonest because it asks people to deny objective reality and have faith. By contrast, science is honest in that it seeks objective reality over all else. Both endeavors are as flawed as the people who participate in them, but science is not based on claims that must be accepted without proof. As such, it is the logical replacement for religion for me as I have decided to make my own judgements based on my own studies of the universe and our place within it.
I am happy to see more and more people are making the same decsion and I am hopeful (and cautiously optomistic) that this will ultimately lead to happier lives and the enhanced possibiity of long term survival of the human race. That would be a much better outcome for all especially considering that many religions like Christianity offer no hope for the long term viability of humans on earth.
That is a sad sad story indeed!
(I know whats coming — heaven, hell, yada, yada yada. Spare me as I am immune to your unsubstantiated promises and threats. Thanks.)
Why is it that it’s not ok for Catholics to place their belief in the Bible, but it’s ok for Jews to place their belief in their Tulmud, or for Atheists and Evolutionists to place their belief in the Origin of Species, by Charles Darwin.
Rock Howard,
We refer to God as a ‘he’ for his paternal figure. God is a Spirit, and does NOT have gender. You are free to make your own decisions in life, hence the reason for your free will. But don’t come complaining to me about how religion has failed you. OR rather, have you failed religion? Religion is rendering God the proper devotion he deserves. Most reasons people are ‘failed by religion’ are simply because they place their religion and faith in people. People are human, they can fall, we are not perfect. Only God is perfect. Hence why as a Catholic, I have to remember to focus on God Himself. People will always cause you hurt and distraction. Focus on the light in the distance. Strive for it.
See, the difference between our books, and yours, is that ours have the evidence and facts to back them up. They provide footnotes to studies, which analyzed the raw data, and made the conclusions. All of this is well-documented under scientific scrutiny – and it is peer-reviewed, which means it must undergo a strenuous process by which it is examined by other members of that scientific field. People believe what is written in these books represents fact because of that process.
The bible, on the other hand, has billions of people believing in it just because. Because they want to? Because they feel they need to? Because they have been raised to? Who knows! What I DO know is that the bible is not fact, and it is surely not a book to live one’s life by, old testament or new.
If you want to take my argument further, substitute all instances of ‘the bible’ with the koran, the talmud, any unverified document on which people live their lives.
You are missing one big difference you can look around the world today and see evidence of evolution and most cases Darwin portrays. Most of these concepts have been tested throughout the scientific community for over a century. This still doesn’t make it truth, it just makes it a much more valid argument. What you don’t see is 1 single element of actual logical proof of a God. It is a belief not reality. It has many benefits to it and explains many of the worlds questions, but that doesn’t make it truth.
What does the Bible contain that is not backed up by raw facts? Do you think that people could actually lie about the Bible in the Early Church, particularly when there were people LIVING who actually witnessed Christ preach and perform Miracles? The Church has passed down those teachings through time, unchanged. And actually, you can find many things historically proved about the Bible. For instance, the crossing at the Red Sea, Soddom and Gomorrah, rendering to Caeser what is Caeser’s. Pontius Pilate as procurator of Judae. All these things have been shown to be true. What does Darwin’s book contain that is fact? NOTHING! He simply states that his works are just theories. NOT FACTS!!! So, if anything, according to your standards, it places us on the same level. Doesn’t it? Because, clearly, if humans are desandant of the ape, we are nothing more than dumb brutes incapable of attaining anything higher.
Joe,
You say that Darwin’s works present a valid argument. But is it not true, that to this day, we have not been able to find that missing link between man and ape? Quite naturally, until you find that missing link, why even bother to rant about religions absurdidty. Your basing all your trust on something which you cannot even find yourselves!
Religous people, such as the writer and lots of readers here, believe in God. God is the most important thing in the world, God is the creator. God is more important than the truth. God is more important than any silly facts, or science, or logic, or the scientific method. Fine.
But don’t pretend to use Science and Logic to argue for your God. You shouldn’t need to try to prove his existence. Just have faith, and stop pretending to understand the complex world around you, and justify Gods existence, it sounds silly, and you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
Anybody who really believes in God, believes in Heaven. And if they really believed, and weren’t liars, they would all join the military and the bomb disposal squad – putting themselves in danger everyday – so they spend less time on this horrible Earth, and more time in Heaven with God. Sorry, you are clearly all liars. That is logic for you.
Master Paul Xavier: What you say, about the missing link is ridiculous. It is like having a puzzle of a house, and becuase the side piece is missing, you are claiming that there is no house. Don’t make up lies about things you don’t know anything about. Either go and study up the millions of facts, and huge amounts of evidence, or shut up. Simple!
People say the same about the Bible. They complain that it is based on nothing, and hence, cannot be worth believing in. But if something that is missing its ‘puzzle’ piece is worth beleiving in, why can’t the Bible be worth it?
People were there? That argument is baseless, unless you then rush to consider the thousands of alien abduction cases, or seeing the virgin Mary in the sky or on a loaf of bread or something of that nature. People’s senses can deceive them! When this deception occurs, people often attribute it to god as a way of comfort, which is wrong.
Ok, now what about the non-canonical gospels? Gospels like the gospel of Judas, Mary Magdalene, and others have been traced to the same time the bible has been written, yet they show a very different view than your book does. How do you reconcile that? That’s right, you had the Church decide for you. Some church committee got together and decided what was best for its people – now if that doesn’t smack of authoritarianism and control, I don’t know what does.
You further demonstrate your ignorance about the real world when you say Darwin’s book postulated theories, not facts. Indeed, this is the case! In the realm of science (the REAL world) the definition of theory is this: ‘a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation.’ Do you understand now? Gravity is technically a theory! Theories are not thrown about like candy, they are based on scientific laws and facts and make a testable and falsifiable conclusion – unlike your book. Here are the facts as we know them – We evolved from ape-like creatures, and that we are continually evolving. This can be proven today.
But if you say my argument about people being there is baseless, then basically you are throwing off the idea of logic. Which you argue for so steadfastly. I doubt something that was crafted off of something non-existant could last so long. Of course I consider those cases. The senses can deceive, but they can always lead us to something more. If I were as skeptical as you are, I’d probably question my own existance on the pretense that my senses are deceiving me.
I actually found this film refreshing… getting ready to retire soon anyway.
“Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.” ~Andre Gide
People say the same about the Bible. They complain that it is based on nothing, and hence, cannot be worth believing in. But if something that is missing its ‘puzzle’ piece is worth beleiving in, why can’t the Bible be worth it?
So you are saying you do believe in Evolution? I am confused. And I don’t find anyone saying that the bible is missing a few puzzle pieces. I see people saying that is a bunch of fairy tails, which tell us nothing about God, and a little about history. That is not a missing puzzle piece!
Claim
Xavier: “I doubt something that was crafted off of something non-existant could last so long.”
Counter Examples:
Tooth Fairy.
Santa.
Bigfoot.
Zeus.
The point, Master Xavier, is that even in trials of law we don’t trust human observations. A single eye-witness is not enough for a fair conviction.
More pertinently: In science, we don’t trust human observations unless they are repeatable.
For instance: Scientist claims he can make cold fusion. -> Other scientists try to do it how he said he did it. -> No one can repeat his observation. -> The scientist falls into international disrepute.
Objective means we can’t just take your word for it. It means we’d have to see something that COULDN’T be faked, not something you strongly believe isn’t faked.
For matters of truth or fiction, science demands a lot. You will never fit religion into science because it’s standard for belief is too low.
“Do you think that people could actually lie about the Bible in the Early Church, particularly when there were people LIVING who actually witnessed Christ preach and perform Miracles?”
Have you heard of the Book of Mormon, or Dianetics? Those were written in modern times, and it hasn’t stopped people from believing in them. Are you going to say that they are true as well just because they have survived ridicule?
“For instance, the crossing at the Red Sea, Soddom and Gomorrah, rendering to Caeser what is Caeser’s. Pontius Pilate as procurator of Judae. All these things have been shown to be true.”
To quote an old argument, if future archeologists unearth a city called “Georgia” and find out that a northern region and a southern region really did go to war, does that prove that “Gone With the Wind” is a true story?
Santa and the Tooth Fairy are not good examples because people entertain those ideas to please children. WE KNOW THEY DO NOT EXIST. It’s quite simple. Zeus, died out who knows how many thousands of years ago, but Christ still prevails.
You sound like a bunch of Pharisee’s, asking for more and more miracles, yet you never will believe.
Now, Gone with the Wind is KNOWN to be written as a fiction, hence it cannot be true. But the Bible has been known for over 2,000 years to have been truth, so what gives you the authority to come along and say everything in it is false? Clearly, in order to denounce the authority of something, you must place yourself as a higher authority.
I have to admit that you are very brave to allow non-believers to post replies here. There is perhaps hope for the world if we can at least continue to talk to one another.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic and saw no reason to not believe in a god, after all every person I ever came into contact did. I knew no other way.
But then I left school and studied engineering. There we were taught to think for ourselves and not just accept what we were told. That had never happened to me before – I believed what I was told to believe – didn’t everyone?
Being taught to think for myself, to work out cause and effect was startling. Mere faith could not survive the process and suddenly aged 21 I came to realise I could no longer support a belief in god. The weight that I metaphorically felt lifting off my shoulders was almost like a drug induced high. Wow! I was suddenly happier and free at last from the oppression that I felt avoiding thinking about the inconsistencies of faith.
A poster above says most atheists are really believers at heart – Not so – if truth be known most “believers” are atheists at heart but are too frighten to think it.
I hope the religious dare to watch this film and perhaps for the first time dare to think for them selves.
Master Paul, I won’t try to cite Animal Farm in support of organized religion again. Orwell was both a Marxist (or satanist, amirite?) and a militant atheist. His critiques were focused on the nature of Stalinism, and its “betrayal” of real Marxism.
religion is a stupid man made concept. someday humanity will hold the catholic church for all it’s crimes against humanity.
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” -Thomas Jefferson
I was a Christian for so many years, because it was comforting to think that some cosmic being cared about me, but then I realized that this was just me wanting to be comforted. I found that every single one of us has the power to comfort themselves, the power to help others, the power to be a good person, and the power to make this reality a better place, without asking for help from some supreme being. It’s interesting to actually test faith. People often pray to be comforted, or for help with something, and then when it works, they claim it was their supreme being helping them. But most people don’t test this. I remember praying to Jesus/God to NOT comfort me, or NOT help me. Afterwards, I found out that the results were exactly the same as when I had prayed for the comfort or help. It was such a liberating experience, I felt more free than I ever had after 20 years of devout Christianity.
Believe me, it took a long time to get to that point (mostly because of the fear that had been planted in my head by said religion – fear of hell, fear of not being with god, etc…) but then I realized that we are already living without a God/supreme being interacting in our lives, whether we realize it or not. I studied the bible for several years before coming to the realization that early people did not have any better explanations for the unexplainable other than “God did this”. Trying to read the bible as literal truth just hurts my brain, as well as anyone else educated in science/reality, (I have a biology degree). I do still find it valuable as it has some good stories in it, and teaches a few morals, but literal truth? I’m not that naive.
So to anyone who believes in the bible and thinks that it helps them live better lives: Congratulations for trying to make the world a better place, but please realize that it can be done without the bible or the fear of hell, and without the belief that some Supreme being is watching and interacting.
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason” – Ben Franklin
Faith is much easier than asking the tough questions.
Steven Weinberg
“With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
Bill Mahr is a genius. Can’t wait to see this movie!!
I keep seeing that if there was no religion where would morality come from.
Are you saying that the only thing Keeping you (Theists) From killing, raping, stealing etc etc is the fear of G-d and hell?
Wow. Very Moral of you.
That is why I am more afraid of theists than anyone else.
I was a devout Christian until I saw this movie. Now I feel like I’m developing my critical reasoning skills in all areas of my life. This allows me a truer morality, I think, because morality that comes from religion isn’t true morality, I’ve realized. Now I can be good to my neighbors because I’m a good person, instead of just because I’m afraid of some guy with a beard in the clouds striking me with a lightning bolt.
You do realise that this film is something of a retaliation to Ben Steins Expelled. They are almost identical in style, but on different sides of the fence. Expelled makes atheism look rediculous and religilous makes the theist’s look rediculous. Only difference is religilous has facts, science, law’s of nature and rationality on it’s side lol.
Also, I feel for fisher of men, religous doctrine is quite similar to terrorism.
@”Master” Paul
“Santa and the Tooth Fairy are not good examples because people entertain those ideas to please children. WE KNOW THEY DO NOT EXIST. It’s quite simple.”
How do you KNOW Jesus existed?
What would you do if someone presented a manuscript that they claimed was a transcription from God, presenting new information, and was to be added to the Bible immediately? How would you verify it’s authenticity? Based on what do you make the assumption that the authors of the Bible were any less suspect than the aforementioned person?
And, I note, no one has challenged Epicurious.
The problem with religion, is it’s based on “It is so because I say it is so.” This is how a child argues.
You have a choice. Argue logically and accept the possibility that you are wrong, or continue to be mocked forever.
But suffer no delusions: the US is the last bastion of Christianity’s blind indoctrination, and it’s time is fading.
“this guy may very well believe in God himself but attempts to bring himself above God and stomp on him. ”
You’re an idiot.
Personally, I feel it is dangerous to personify god, calling god “him”, is just another form of neuro-linguistic trance induction. One of many subtle ways the church symbolically impresses it’s agenda upon the unaware.
Another point that I find troubling, is the hijacking of morality by any religion. Their idea of a deity is not the first and certainly not the last. When civilization advanced to a point where gigantic cities were formed requiring unheard of amounts of intelligence, labor, and co-operative thought, can you honestly put in writing that no morality was present in those achievements? Sorry, that’s not even a chicken, and the egg argument.
Also, Catholic’s have some serious problems, that they simply will not address.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_Sollicitationis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsK6JsvTAwQ
(It’s a documentary in 10 parts.)
Catholic’s screwed up big time when they stopped letting priest get married. You can justify it all that you want but when it comes down to motivation, and rules that one was put in place for financial reasons.
Maybe in 600 years or so a realistic Pope will do something about it.
Yes you are technically right that Gone With the Wind has always been portrayed as fiction, even though the analogy was supposed to be saying that the archeologists 1000 years from now didn’t know that. But if you don’t like that one, how about the Qu’ran? They definitely portray that as fact, so insert that into my analogy and change ‘Georgia’ to ‘Mecca’, etc. Now do you have a retort to that?
And then also, can you please explain to me how your religion is somehow superior (in terms of knowing that it is true) than Islam? They have the same roots, but you have arbitrarily chosen one over the other. What if Muhammad was right?
How much you want to bet free posting on this blog will now end?
Don’t worry guys, you just got on reddit.com in the atheist forum. As a result we have come over to see the fun.
In a few days it will die down and all of you can go back to your normal religious talk and not be bothered by us any more.
“This truly shows the ignorance of our times”
No, you and your ilk do. If only you held yourselves to the standard you hold everyone else to…oh what a wonderful world this would be.
Incalculably more crimes against humanity have been committed by atheists than by Christians, let alone Catholics.
Stalin, Mao and Hitler alone are proof enough.
Perhaps you some of you atheists should use that reason you taut so much and really do some thinking on your own, instead of lapping up every bigoted anti-religious dogma that forms your creed.
Think about this: If you’d have been born and raised in Pakistan you’d be just as adamantly defending Muhammed and you’d be just as sure you’re right as you are about defending you’re prophet.
If you can’t see the truth of this you’re willfully blinding yourself to reality.
Evolution argues that we share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and gorillas. And indeed, one of our chromosomes is the result of a fusion of two primate chromosomes. Our chromosome #2 was formed by the fusion of two primate chromosomes, and scientists can prove this.
When presented with the evidence, Creationists are simply unable to respond.
This video proves our common ancestry.
“Stalin, Mao and Hitler alone are proof enough.”
Excuse me genius, but Hitler certainly was NOT atheist maybe it’s time for you to take a look at Mein Kampf.
As far as Stalin and Mao this is so over used. Neither of these fools killed in the name of atheism. I wonder how many people have killed, slaughtered, or otherwise maimed other humans in the name of religion. I bet you can not even being to understand how much death this superstition has visited and continues to visit up this earth.
Slatts,
I am sorry for your change in heart during your college years. Unfortunately, not everything can be proven as an analyst may most wish. There are plenty of *unknowns* in the world of science that we just KNOW are true but cannot prove. It doesn’t change the truth … we just cannot wrap our brains around it. There are plenty of paradoxes as well. One that comes to mind is Zeno’s paradox which perhaps you learned in college as I did. If not, I’ll refresh your memory. The distance between 2 pts can always be cut in half. In fact, we can infinitely continue to cut a line in half. So, if we want to walk from pt A to pt B, and we keep cutting our distance in half, then theoretically we should never get to our destination. But, we all know this is absurd. Mathematically, however, (Unless it has changed in the last 20 yrs), we cannot prove it. Big whoop.
So, if your faith beforehand had been nothing but a laundry list of do’s and don’ts, then I can see your relief to finally be free of it. You never really owned your faith. you went through the motions because that was what was taught to you. Perhaps because you never felt any kind of relationship with our Lord, you assumed wrongly that those who did indeed claim to have a relationship were either delusional (atheists who were too afraid to admit it, as you stated) or just confused at the very least. Pity. I, at one time, although never an atheist, certainly was an agnostic … too afraid to admit it, as you stated. However, I continued pressing God for this relationship that some claimed to have and for His wisdom. He delivered.
Seek and knock, my friend. It’s not too late.
2 points, Master Paul Xavier:
You say,
“Santa and the Tooth Fairy are not good examples because people entertain those ideas to please children. WE KNOW THEY DO NOT EXIST. It’s quite simple. Zeus, died out who knows how many thousands of years ago, but Christ still prevails.”
and
“Christianity requires the use of our intellect. Not simply a follow tag along religion. Ever hear of Faith and Reason?”
The first statement is in direct conflict with the second statement. Just because something is old does not mean it is right. That’s called the ad antiquitatem fallacy (or “the appeal to tradition”). As a former Catholic, I know that the fact that people have been doing the same thing for a long time is one of the ways that Catholics believe that they are practicing the “true religion,” (the other ways include revelation and faith, I believe), but that’s just it. The fact that something that something has been done for a long time does not make it true. The Church has formally instituted a LOGICAL FALLACY as a way to truth. Faith and REASON, methinks not.
Another problem with what you are saying is that the Zeus worshipers could have said the same thing. Zeus/Jupiter has been around for over a thousand years (by 300 AD), so it must be true. But you reject that because it is not your god. Indeed, if you look at Christianity and the conversion of Constatine, you will see that “mythic” classical gods simply became saints. (Hercules became St. Christopher, etc.) Really. There are examples of names of gods identified on statues being scratched out and new names written on them. Funny, that!
“You sound like a bunch of Pharisee’s, asking for more and more miracles, yet you never will believe.”
I want one miracle. A single one that nobody can deny. That’s how low the bar is. One single verifiable miracle. That’s it. One. And then I’ll be skipping to church with a song in my heart, probably a gospel song. Not a story about a miracle, which is not the same thing.
HJ
My turn:
If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
If “every one who asks receives”, then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If “our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him”, then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
If “nothing will be impossible to you”, then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement “nothing will be impossible to you” becomes “lots of things will be impossible to you,” and that would mean that Jesus is lying.
In Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
If “you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer”, then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret “you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer”, unless you replace “whatever” with “nothing” or “little.”
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
If God says, “believe that you have received it, and it will be yours,” and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” [ref]
Look at how direct this statement is: “You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” This is the “Son of God” speaking. Have we taken him “too literally?” No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement “out of context?” No – Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus’ statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.
We see the same thing over and over again…
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.
In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.
Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus’ promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.
And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of “inspired” human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.
Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.
When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth.
Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer,
he is clearly lying.
If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus’ name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus’ name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus’ requirements.
Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus’ promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered.
If you are an intelligent, rational human being, all of the examples mentioned above show you that the God of the Bible is imaginary. What Jesus says about prayer in the Bible clearly is not true.
(stolen from http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm)
Ps.
“Extraordinary claims really require extraordinary evidence”
What ‘cha got in the way of evidence Christian-folk?
You can’t even prove that Jesus ever even existed.
(well…proof outside of the bible)
As for “morality”.
I would rather be moral knowing I will neither be rewarded or punished for my actions. I am moral because it’s the right thing to do.
If you do “deeds of good” out of anticipation of reward (ie. riding around in your Jesus piloted tug boat in the clouds)…then please….don’t breed.
Ps.Ps.
You also believe in talking snakes…you folks are creepy.
I thought the Catholic God was all forgiving? What’s all this “bring himself above God and stomp on him. ”… Surely not hypocrisy from religious types, never…
don’t believe me though, check out the DOCUMENTED HISTORY the VATICAN don’t advertise. {shakes head knowing it will never change}.
Excuse me for educating myself on history of religion (all religions) – it tends to follow that value judgements fail to hold water without evidence. Either way, you’re all Horus followers, just different names
Dear Jennifer –
You have got to be kidding me.
“However, I continued pressing God for this relationship that some claimed to have and for His wisdom. He delivered.”
What in the hell are you talking about? You pressed a superstitious figure of history for a relationship? You “believe” in what really? A god that could be any other god from history. The god you belief in – is in no way what so ever original. In fact MOST of your religion was STOLEN from other gods and religions.
You only believe in your current god because you actually have thought of it critically. You continue to accept what you have been taught and find no need to change your thought process. Probably because you are to scared to do so. Many people “believe” in a god simply because they are afraid or are comfortable doing so. Not really a good reason if you ask me. Baby’s are comforted by sucking a pacifier not very dignified is it? ( I think Richard Dawkins said something just like this)
http://notjustatheory.com/
You’ve been told that “evolution is just a theory”, a guess, a hunch, and not a fact, not proven. You’ve been misled. Keep reading, and in less than two minutes from now you’ll know that you’ve been misinformed. We’re not going to try and change your mind about evolution. We just want to point out that “it’s just a theory” is not a valid argument.
The Theory of Evolution is a theory, but guess what? When scientists use the word theory, it has a different meaning to normal everyday use. That’s right, it all comes down to the multiple meanings of the word theory. If you said to a scientist that you didn’t believe in evolution because it was “just a theory”, they’d probably be a bit puzzled.
In everyday use, theory means a guess or a hunch, something that maybe needs proof. In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It’s a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. It ties together all the facts about something, providing an explanation that fits all the observations and can be used to make predictions. In science, theory is the ultimate goal, the explanation. It’s as close to proven as anything in science can be.
Some people think that in science, you have a theory, and once it’s proven, it becomes a law. That’s not how it works. In science, we collect facts, or observations, we use laws to describe them, and a theory to explain them. You don’t promote a theory to a law by proving it. A theory never becomes a law.
This bears repeating. A theory never becomes a law. In fact, if there was a hierarchy of science, theories would be higher than laws. There is nothing higher, or better, than a theory. Laws describe things, theories explain them. An example will help you to understand this. There’s a law of gravity, which is the description of gravity. It basically says that if you let go of something it’ll fall. It doesn’t say why. Then there’s the theory of gravity, which is an attempt to explain why. Actually, Newton’s Theory of Gravity did a pretty good job, but Einstein’s Theory of Relativity does a better job of explaining it. These explanations are called theories, and will always be theories. They can’t be changed into laws, because laws are different things. Laws describe, and theories explain.
Just because it’s called a theory of gravity, doesn’t mean that it’s just a guess. It’s been tested. All our observations are supported by it, as well as its predictions that we’ve tested. Also, gravity is real! You can observe it for yourself. Just because it’s real doesn’t mean that the explanation is a law. The explanation, in scientific terms, is called a theory.
Evolution is the same. There’s the fact of evolution. Evolution (genetic change over generations) happens, just like gravity does. Don’t take my word for it. Ask your science teacher, or google it. But that’s not the issue we are addressing here. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is our best explanation for the fact of evolution. It has been tested and scrutinised for over 150 years, and is supported by all the relevant observations.
Next time someone tries to tell you that evolution is just a theory, as a way of dismissing it, as if it’s just something someone guessed at, remember that they’re using the non-scientific meaning of the word. If that person is a teacher, or minister, or some other figure of authority, they should know better. In fact, they probably do, and are trying to mislead you.
Evolution is not just a theory, it’s triumphantly a theory!
Scientific study of prayer reveals it has no better odds than random chance.
Scientific review of religion shows no emperical evidence.
Logic would present to you that neither anything in reality requires the explanation of god, nor relies on there being a god.
Such is the case, believers have all their work ahead of them if they claim to be able to “prove” their case.
Ironically you cannot “prove” a claim with no evidence, thusly I admit it was simply sarcasm in me saying as such.
Believers have faith, nothing more. Do not say you have proof because you do not. What you have is anecdotal evidence and illogical claims to try to justify the the things you were told as a child and grew up with all your life to cope with the idea of death and meaning in your own lives.
Believe, but keep it completely to yourself. No one else need fall victim to your web of circular reasoning and hearsay.
Blah, blah, blah no original ideas. Same stuff over and over, and over. Really it is quite boring, and not at all intelligent. Seeing as all your using the same argument that has been passed down through the centuries that the Catholic Church is evil, and that we are all brainwashed sheep, so on and so forth then I must use the same argument against you my fellow closet Christians. {Praying to God to change your heart} Don’t you all realize that you yourself have been “brainwashed” into BELIEVING that no “God” exists, your actually believing in the fact that God does indeed exist. For example I could say that I don’t believe in oxygen, therefore there would indeed have to be oxygen present for me not to believe in it. So by denying the fact that God exists, you’re actually admitting that God does exist. You all just have you knickers in a twist, and upset that you have been lied to throughout your entire life. By you opening your mind and seeing the “truth” that you believe that God does not exists, you close your mind to the “truth” that he does exist. Just like a stubborn 2 year old that is having a tantrum in a store because he wants a lollipop, you have lost all sense of reality, and are focusing on just one thing, your covered in snot, you can’t see that lollipop anymore because your eyes are flooded and blinding you, yet you still press one insisting that you want that lollipop. A responsible parent would take you outside, and remove you from the lollipop fiasco, and tell you that you were wrong in throwing the tantrum, and then forgive you. Just so you follow me, the lollipop is a metaphor for your non-belief in the simple fact that God does indeed exist, and the parent in this is a metaphor for God, He is all forgiving you know. So my question to you is when you are going to come up with some original material, and have a valid argument against us believers, so I might possibly have an intellectual discussion, based on facts, and logic, not hatred and angst.
Carl,
Low blow bringing babies into this equation, sucking on pacifiers and such. Pacifiers were meant for babies that could not be comforted due to colic, it is only until recent years that they have been substituted as a baby crying stopper for reasons other than colic. And what’s this about dignity, they are a baby for crying out loud, they don’t really care about, nor do they know what dignity means. Not unlike yourself bring poor little babies into the mix, shame on you sir shame on you.
Stalin and Mao did not kill for a theory, but they did kill to persecute religious persons, a practice which had its basis in their atheistic philosophy.
As for Hitler, he spoke wrote with political expediency. Surely you are not suggesting that he too was a religious perpetrator of crimes against humanity.
Whatever countenance he gave to religious institutions he did so for his own ends. The fact is that in the death camps Catholic priests were singled out like the Jews for “special treatment.”
Hitler was a pathological liar and a political opportunist.
Dear Carl,
YOu know, Carl, I am at peace with my decision. I do not get angry at other for not believing as I do because I am at PEACE. Are you? If you’re so convinced of your truth, why start cursing at someone like me? What do you care?
As for the small miracles, I’ve had my few! For me, these were the start of seeing that Christ was letting me know that He was there. For instance, one night on my way to a rehearsal, I had this vision while driving that one of my kids hit their head in the tub and my husband wasn’t paying attention. Not having a cell phone at the time, I almost turned around. But then I thought, “How crazy is this? My husband will think I’ve lost it. I’ll just keep going.” When I arrived to my destination, I couldn’t stand it … I had to find a pay phone and call. I told my husband of this *thought* or vision I had. He was silent. I immediately figured he’d thought I was a nutcase. Instead, he said, “I put the two kids in the tub and then was downstairs quickly vacuuming up a mess. L (leave her name out of it) slipped and hit her head on the faucet. I didn’t hear her crying. How on earth did you know this?”
Now, I’ve had a number of other such stories in which there was no way I could have known these things. Some will believe in coincidence but these were way too detailed and out of my realm to have known. As I continued praying, things continued happening until I could no longer ignore this.
Now for some, you may doubt what I am saying and think I’m making it up. Go ahead … I am not here to convince you of a thing!! Honestly. For others, you may believe in things like mental telepathy … yawn. Again, when someone doesn’t want to hear, they won’t hear.
Again, I am at peace with my decision … as a Christian, I do believe that I must be prepared to give a reason for my belief. So, since I believe you have asked (in a round-about way), I am giving a reason. But, after that, it is NOT my job to convince you of a thing. In fact, usually I try to avoid these discussions because they go nowhere. However, as Slatts said, sometimes it’s good to keep dialogue open. One never knows where a seed may be planted!
But, ugly confrontation and name-calling is not my cup of tea … dont’ feel the need for it. Peaceful discussion is always welcome.
Off to enjoy the lovely day.
All the discussion about science and rationality and the general assumption that atheists are the guardians of reason and religious persons are slayers of reason is based on presuppositions about the nature of reason and its first principles. That presupposition of the atheists seems to be that that no knowledge can be certain unless it is empirically verified and tested by the methods of the natural sciences.
Many of the great minds of the natural sciences have been and are religious people, precisely because they refuse to accept this presupposition which according to their very rational minds does not square either with logic or experience.
I don’t mention this because I think that it will sway anyone. I am not that naïve. I say it because the presupposition itself is arguably not a question of natural science, but of metaphysics, the validity of which, granted, many atheists would deny, but which remains a question of reason, not of religious faith.
The point is that the discussion of this presupposition is a rational one, one that has gone on for ages, one that has gone on between clerics, philosophers and scientists. What is the nature of science? Empiricists attack not only religious people, but even philosophers and scientists who would dare to ask this question and suggest that a method which does not address the question of existence itself has not really answered the question at all.
“But, ugly confrontation and name-calling is not my cup of tea”
Not really sure what you mean with this comment. I do not recall calling anybody names. I also scanned them again just in case I was wrong and the only thing I said was “hell”. It is quite possible I missed it would you mind showing me where I called you a name?
Let’s just say that I can pray to a milk jug and have my prayers answered in about the same 50/50 rate any religious person will have their prayers answered.
People are at peace with their religious decisions because they are comforted by them. People fear death and it gives them great comfort to believe that when they die they are going somewhere. The problem is this irrational belief bleeds into our politics and other areas of our lives. Which, tends to muck up education, politics, and every other facet of our world simply because someone believes in a religion.
Ok, now for the next comment —
“Carl,
Low blow bringing babies into this equation, sucking on pacifiers and such. Pacifiers were meant for babies that could not be comforted due to colic, it is only until recent years that they have been substituted as a baby crying stopper for reasons other than colic. And what’s this about dignity, they are a baby for crying out loud, they don’t really care about, nor do they know what dignity means. Not unlike yourself bring poor little babies into the mix, shame on you sir shame on you.”
umm please… spare me your holier than thou antics. How dare I bring babies into this? It was a metaphor. I would think religious people would be used to this by now since the bible is chalk full of them.
I can’t even believe I have to explain this to you.
What type of statement is that about the Milk Jug, Carl? Now, I would like to point out that your explanation of why people go to Church can conform to lukewarm Christians. People do need a comfortzone, people do tend to abuse the Church for that. A clear example of that would be people after 9/11. The Church’s were packed because it was a time of crisis. People WERE AFRAID. But just because a majority of people who attend Church don’t actually believe, do you have to go about tearing those who do believe down?
Carl,
First of all, only the first paragraph was actually directed towards you. However, there is definitely an *edge* and condescending tone to your remarks. But, that’s fine … passionate topics ignite fires in people in different ways. I’m just saying that when it gets ugly, I’m out.
Enjoy your milk jug!! I’ll take my chances with my God … I’d rather be a devout Christian and find out in the end that I was wrong than to be an atheist and discover I was wrong. Both ways would allow me to be a happy person but one has a much happier ending. I’ll take my chances, thank you.
Gotta run cuz I’m practicing for the Hallelujah Chorus that I’m playing on Sunday … amazing how many unbelievable artists and composers were inspired to create such unbelievable works! Hmmm.
It’s been interesting, that’s for sure!
Jen.
I am an engineer and I believe in God. Your occupation doesn’t define your beliefs, rather it can complement them and help you to arrive at a deeper understanding. Many other engineers, doctors, lawyers, educated people and uneducated people believe and have throughout history. Some of the most influential missionaries, from St. Paul of Tarsus to Bl. Mother Teresa were educated folk. God grants us many graces and talents.
St. Augustine wrote: “Our whole business therefore in this life is to restore to health the eye of the heart whereby God may be seen. To this end are celebrated the Holy Mysteries; to this end the word of God is preached; to this end are the moral exhortations of the Church made, …To this end is directed the whole aim of the Divine and Holy Scriptures, that that interior eye may be purged of anything which hinders us from the sight of God.”
So, as an atheist ‘you do not see because your hearts are hardened, and though your eyes see yet you still do not perceive.’
As to the comment that praying to an “invisible being” perhaps this answers your queries:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0170.html
Since we are free creatures, if we harden our hearts and don’t let God reveal himself to us, He just won’t. He still loves and thirsts for us, but He loved us so much so to give us free will.
Carl,
I realized that it was a metaphor, if you weren’t so blinded by anger you would have seen that I to posted a metaphor using a child. Mine however was quite funny, and true in the appropriate usage of this topic. Yours left me in a quandary? Did you mean that believers were babies sucking on pacifiers, or was it you non-believers that were using the said pacifier?
“ The problem is this irrational belief bleeds into our politics and other areas of our lives. Which, tends to muck up education, politics, and every other facet of our world simply because someone believes in a religion. “
Um, have you read the headlines yet of anything. Are you not seeing the radical leftist change going on in our society? Kids can’t say “One nation under God”, if they are saying our national anthem at all in schools today. They are legalizing homosexual marriage, which btw societies that encourage this fell, and have no substantial use meaning they can’t procreate (in its truest sense of the word) and abortifications are allowed in catholic hospitals. They are teaching pro-homosexuality in kindergarten, and they have taken God out of everything. Who is peeing in whose pool now? I don’t intend to go downhill with this blog. Master Paul has done a fantastic job keeping the blog on a respectable level
Getting back to your earlier point for just a bit, let us not forget that it was the generations before us that allowed God in schools, and banned homosexual agenda from our society, that was able to give you the society in which you live in, and are free to think in. Do you believe that if you had it your way, your true utopian society, you would be either communistic or dead because of your said beliefs? That is the way our great American culture is heading, down the path of communism, or dictatorship, either or, we both wouldn’t be able to be having this discussion. Just something for you to mull over while I pray to God to save your soul.
P.s. milk goes bad after it expiration date, it is not usable, it will make you sick. Our Lord raised from the dead after his expiration date, he is all good, he will never make you sick, plus he has been around for over 2,000 years. Milk not unlike Atheism does not have that staying power.
“Blah, blah, blah no original ideas. Same stuff over and over, and over.”<- Talking about the church rite cuz ive see nothing original either here.
“Don’t you all realize that you yourself have been “brainwashed” into BELIEVING that no “God” exists,”<- so…reading scientific reports trying to understand and make your own conclusions after with some facts is brainwashing,and accepting without facts whats written in a book is….not?Ok ok i think the definition of “brainwashing” is relative(oh sorry there is no relative things in this world really its just that peoples point of views are diffirents and all claims it to be the thruth).
“, your actually believing in the fact that God does indeed exist.” <- ok…so atheist actually bieleve in god (even though they say they dont you found out they lied), and the deist (you know those people that actually bieleve not in religions but that there must be something like a supreme self conscious entity)by bieleving in a “supreme entity” actually agrees with all thats written in your religion.
“For example I could say that I don’t believe in oxygen, therefore there would indeed have to be oxygen present for me not to believe in it. So by denying the fact that God exists, you’re actually admitting that God does exist.” <-Wait…Oxygen?Oxygen can be proved to exist you know?What?Because you bieleve that doesnt exits in fact it exists?WAIT!So if i claim that godzilla exist , that ganesh (the indian god) doesnt exist , that batman and spiderman doesnt exists….actually THEY DO?wait wait i need some PROOF oh that it would be awesome btw the time machine or the allwomenucanget spray doesnt exists(prays hard).Please stop the not working amalgams thats the first time a “made to be absurd explanation’ is really absurd.
“You all just have you knickers in a twist, and upset that you have been lied to throughout your entire life. By you opening your mind and seeing the “truth” that you believe that God does not exists, you close your mind to the “truth” that he does exist.”<- lets rewrite that in an atheist way here we go : “You all just have you knickers in a twist, and upset that you have been lied to throughout your entire life. By you opening your mind and seeing the “truth” that you believe that God does exists, you close your mind to the “truth” that he does not exist.” <- yeah i kno there is no argument in here ,its just about calling what you want truth really its easy.
“Just like a stubborn 2 year old that is having a tantrum in a store because he wants a lollipop, you have lost all sense of reality, and are focusing on just one thing, your covered in snot, you can’t see that lollipop anymore because your eyes are flooded and blinding you, yet you still press one insisting that you want that lollipop. A responsible parent would take you outside, and remove you from the lollipop fiasco, and tell you that you were wrong in throwing the tantrum, and then forgive you. Just so you follow me, the lollipop is a metaphor for your non-belief in the simple fact that God does indeed exist, and the parent in this is a metaphor for God, He is all forgiving you know. So my question to you is when you are going to come up with some original material, and have a valid argument against us believers” At first i tought “oh wow he is actually talking about religious integrists and againt obscurantism ,yeah he actually understood the lack of understanding and the lack of doubts some over religious people have” but no…and you even state that if you bieleve in something it simply exists…i m about to cry…And yeah there is nothing original from the church of the bielievers maybe atheists and agnostics too but it just seems that the bielievers just dont understand the atheists and agnostics and vice versa anyway for my part i m agnostic and must say that the atheists are more coherent than the bielievers…by coherent i mean logically coherent just because one part try to explain by the not explainable and not verifiable , and the other part tries to understand its environment and keeps trying to understand what is still not understood with some nice results.
Dont get me wrong , i m doubtfull (yeah poor me) buts its because of “official” history that showned so many flaws in the church , and because all the sacred books ive read were fun but stayed as “books” for me , its the same for science im not prone to bieleve “just because you have been told the truth” but scientists gave tangible results and i must just say that ethic and morals are not the church or your religion private feature dont forget philosophics and btw the real first scientist werent religious but philosophers (aristote phytagore etc etc) and pious people (muslim first i think) were inspired by them before warmongers destroyed there influence with brute force. btw im french u can go on with prejudice xD
Skeet is an enemy of freedom of religion….?USA is a multicultural and multi religion country why should kids be forced to adopt your religion or way of thinking…that is brainwashing school is not made for religion instruction but to make an educated citizen you have no tolerance for other religions (of course how can the one with the truth bear so many fakes…) religion is a private matter , so is sexuality its about one’s freedom right?freedom that dont really bother you even if you think that they cant make babies i bieleve its okay…but yeah this will lead to a child market thats expanding…and then a big discussion about the things required to be a parent and the reason of having a baby procreation is real interesting matter that dont have really something to do with religions in my humble opinion since even not religious people disagree for ETHICAL reasons .
sorry for the poorly made sentences i was on a rush =p
My dear Master Xavier and Miss Angela Rose,
May our dear Lord Jesus Christ and HIS Blessed Mother ( our beloved Mother )continue to bless you and bless you abundantly. Faith is a gift, a pearl from heaven and you have been blessed. May HIS grace and wisdom continue to fill you and enrich the both of you as you bring HIS light to this world of darkness.
Ave Maria!
Thank you Cheryl!
OK. Can any Christians here site any proof, that does not originate from the Bible, that Jesus ever even existed?
Please site your evidence.
-Cheers!
“My dear Master Xavier and Miss Angela Rose,
May our dear Lord Jesus Christ and HIS Blessed Mother ( our beloved Mother )continue to bless you and bless you abundantly. Faith is a gift, a pearl from heaven and you have been blessed. May HIS grace and wisdom continue to fill you and enrich the both of you as you bring HIS light to this world of darkness.
Ave Maria!” its beautifull but makes no sense :’(
Wait in facts it makes sense!There is so romance in it that it seems nice to the naives .Btw wisdom and faith dont match….faith = firmly bieleve without true backing (yeah there is a hughe difference in bieliving and faith since the latter implies no doubt).All i was trying to say is that this metaphore is a stating without backing and please stop telling that faith is a gift , its too general say “faith in the bible” =D there are so many people with faith in soooo many things out there how can they be “all blessed” when they arnt on the same religions as u :’(
Dear IIzO,
You ask what ‘proof’ we have that Jesus/God exists…that would be like trying to prove the color yellow exists to the blind man who refuses to believe it. The evidence is all around you yet, you refuse to see. Faith and wisdom ( although your definition of wisdom is incomplete ) do match as the Lord has left HIS footprint in everything HE created. That you refuse to see it is evident by your lack of faith. Faith is gift- its a gift the Lord is very generous with but, gentleman that HE is never forces anyone to accept it. I pray that, at some point, you have the wisdom to accept HIS gift.
Peace and Christs Blessings, Cheryl
Lol “that would be like trying to prove the color yellow exists to the blind man who refuses to believe it” i didnt know that blind people refused to bielieve into colors thats a first for me lol ,most of the blind when u ask just say they cant see (lol THEY ARE blind) they dont tell you “it doesnt exists” just ” I CANT SEE” lol and you know what ” FAITH” isnt an empirical sense (if so many people with so many different faiths that contradicts each other would just make the “faith” sense very questionable)
“The evidence is all around you yet, you refuse to see.” ok so sine i lack ” FAITH” i cant see god?But you know what i had “FAITH” when i was younger and it was explained by NOTHING but the fact of BIELEVING firmly no empirical experiencies , just reading the book (bible) listening the priest (my dad is friend with my homeland’s church they are pretty nice people) and watching the whole world trough that ONLY scope of the bible etc so i think that even if u see miracle (or mostly things u cant explain) the fact of saying “it proves god’s existance” is a bit hasty since almost EVERY thing including faith (adding faith in ufo , paganism etc) tend to talk about supra natural so….to sum up faith is not a “sense” so i cant “lack it to see” if im not right please call it another name (not saint spirit of somthing it sounds…not nice.
“the Lord has left HIS footprint in everything HE created.” i need you to be more precise on this (i m a biology student).(i told you im agnostic i just need that sort of discussion to take a decision on what to bieleve).
“That you refuse to see it is evident by your lack of faith.” as i said before faith means “to bielieve without seeing” i cant “see” with “faith” when its supposed to be “UNSEEN” i just dont get what you mean.
“HE is never forces anyone to accept it.” wait accepting faith?what does it mean?How is it a gift…bieliving without further need of information than a book and controversial happenings…how is this a gift , and why is god a “HE” this makes not sense to my rational mind.
“I pray that, at some point, you have the wisdom to accept HIS gift. ” hm i cant have “faith” in anything im just making bets and probability about truth as any humans (at least me lol )cant see trough everything to find truths (yeah there are MANY truth not “one and only) so for my limited mind and senses i just cant accept to bielieve firmly just for the sake of it.
PS: its nice to have discussion here most of the bielievers try to make sense its really pleasant keep it up .
oh i forgot one point “You ask what ‘proof’ we have that Jesus/God exists…that would be like trying to prove the color yellow exists to the blind man who refuses to believe it” that was my argument , its not because you state that something exists that it exists , and its because you state that it doesnt exists that it doesnt .The opposite is true “statings of truth are not truth”.
IIzO,
I am humble enough to admit when I have done wrong. I came into this discussion after I was attacked (for the lack of a better word) about my views. I arrogantly thought to myself that I would stir the pot a bit, and give atheists what they wanted. I came off as a “danger to freedom” (thank you btw I have never been called that), and I‘ll be honest it was my pride being pricked.
A great Saint once said (might be misquoting but you’ll get the general idea) always preach the gospel, when necessary use words. Seeing as the entire format we are using only involves words, I have done a great injustice to the Gospels and to my Lord by giving into my temptations to prove you wrong. When in all actuality I can’t prove you wrong, I can only defend my stance. It isn’t MY job to prove you wrong; it is your job to see your own faults. I believe there is a verse in the bible (again paraphrasing) that says before removing a splinter from your brother’s eye, you must first remove the beam from yours.
I have a problem with this, I know it, and I am working on it in order to save not only my family’s souls, but my own, and indeed yours as well.
You see that is what religion is all about, specifically Catholicism, seeing as all that is what I am, that is what I know, and have come to understand. I’ll be the first to admit, I am not a learned man, I have much to grow in my journey, and I appreciate these types of venues to practice my apologetics in. I work a hard laborers job, I am the sole supporter of my growing family, and I praise the Lord, and ask him for graces to help me along the way. And you know what, he answers me, he has blessed me with a beautiful family, a great job, a fantastic social circle in which we all believe in and fight zealously for the same goal, and I am never in dire straights. That in not to say I don’t have my penances, believe me they come fast and furious, I get through them with the help of Our Lord and Our Lady. So when you ask how we can prove this, or that, the existence of God, or if Jesus did indeed walk the earth, without using the bible, then I say to you no. I can’t, I am not well versed in the bible, and I don’t really have the means to do so. But on the other hand you can’t prove to me that oxygen exists either without using a science book. So I guess I will have to go on faith that it does exist.
That is what it is all about my friend, faith. You might call it blind faith, and that you need more substantial evidence that something exists. You might need to see with your own eyes how things work, so on and so forth. That is great for you, keep up our studies in biology, become someone great, help the world, achieve that goal of ultimate educational gratification whatever it is. If you fall short, I’m not saying you will, then pick yourself back up and persevere on. But when you come up to something in your life that just can not be explained, that one of you books doesn’t have in it, and you wonder to yourself how in the world that could have possibly happened, just remember your child hood, and once again ignite that flame that is inside your soul for the truth. Not all truths can be proven, not all scientific evidence can be solved, but you indeed have faith my friend, and don’t forget it. Science and religion aren’t that far off. You look under a microscope to find your facts and evidence. I look at my family to know the existence of God, I see how beautiful they are, how God has blessed me with the awesome responsibility of raising them right. TO raise them in the only way I know how to raise them, in his truths not the worlds.
P.s. How does a science student prove the incorruptible? Being raised in the religion I know you know what I speak of. If you don’t they are saints whose bodies or parts of their bodies have remained uncorrupted and fully intact. Also how do you explain the existence of man? If we did indeed come from apes, as I’m sure you will tell me, then why are there still apes, and where is the missing link? Or do you just chalk it up to scientific faith that men came from apes?
P.S. Ave Maria means Hail Mary, and why are you attacking the believers, it is not very charitable. So if you could please don’t attack those that have done no wrong against you. You know the golden rule type of thing.
Thanks
“OK. Can any Christians here site any proof, that does not originate from the Bible, that Jesus ever even existed?
Please site your evidence.”
Here are a few examples by non-Christian sources. Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Seutonius, Flavius Josephus, and even the Talmud.
IIzo says:
Lol… i didnt know that blind people refused to bielieve into colors thats a first for me lol ,most of the blind when u ask just say they cant see (lol THEY ARE blind) they dont tell you “it doesnt exists” just ” I CANT SEE” lol and you know what ” FAITH” isnt an empirical sense (if so many people with so many different faiths that contradicts each other would just make the “faith” sense very questionable)
Hello again IIzo,
First, thankyou for the time and thought you have put into your reply. I appreciate the effort.
The reference, to proving the color yellow exists to the blind man, who refuses to believe was not meant to be taken literally- it was a metaphore. To debate with the blind man( metaphorically speaking ), regarding the existance of the color yellow when he has already decided ‘yellow’ was an empirically unprovable concept- would be an exercise in futility. I have experienced God in a very tangible way and so has every Catholic who attends Mass. There are some who recognise that tangibility and those who do not. But, for me to try to ‘prove it’ to those who have already made up thier mind otherwise is futile…
IIzO says:
“ok so sine i lack ” FAITH” i cant see god?But you know what i had “FAITH” when i was younger and it was explained by NOTHING but the fact of BIELEVING firmly no empirical experiencies , just reading the book (bible) listening the priest (my dad is friend with my homeland’s church they are pretty nice people) and watching the whole world trough that ONLY scope of the bible etc so i think that even if u see miracle (or mostly things u cant explain) the fact of saying “it proves god’s existance” is a bit hasty since almost EVERY thing including faith (adding faith in ufo , paganism etc) tend to talk about supra natural so….to sum up faith is not a “sense” so i cant “lack it to see” if im not right please call it another name (not saint spirit of somthing it sounds…not nice.”
First, I think you referred to yourself earlier as Agnostic- so, unless I am mistaken it isn’t that you deny Gods existence altogether? You still leave room for that possibility?
You state that you had faith as a child but, did not experience anything, with any tangibility, to back up that faith? What about those who HAVE experienced God, in very tangible ways? Would you dismiss so easily the very real and tangible experiences of those Saints to whom Christ has revealed HIMSELF- for thousands of years? What of the Eucharistic Miracle at Luciano, what of the Shroud of Turin, the Tilma of Guadelupe? Christ recognizes the frailty of the human heart/mind and our need for tangibility. In HIS mercy and desire to save us HE has provided the empirical evidence you speak of- its there for the world to see. Of course, there will always be those who dismiss the evidence and refuse to believe dispite the evidence to the contrary. And, once again, the Lord will never force anyone to believe.
IIzO says:
“the Lord has left HIS footprint in everything HE created.” i need you to be more precise on this (i m a biology student).(i told you im agnostic i just need that sort of discussion to take a decision on what to bieleve).
“That you refuse to see it is evident by your lack of faith.” as i said before faith means “to bielieve without seeing” i cant “see” with “faith” when its supposed to be “UNSEEN” i just dont get what you mean.
Well, what I mean is throughout the ENTIRE natural world the Lord has left HIS footprint- From the complexity of the human body, to the harmony with which each of the earths ecosystems balance themselves. The Lord is present in all of it. I don’t know how much more precise I can be – especially because I’m tired. I will have to finish this discussion another time as I am very tired. Sweet dreams IIzO…
Peace and Christs Blessings, Cheryl
We have no proof on the exact way that gravity works… yet we are held by gravity to the planet earth.
In a similar manner, we see evidence of God, yet do not fully understand God.
We have no proof on the way gravity works? OMG. You rebutted your self.
I was raised in a Catholic church…and as I got older and started listening to the things they were preaching, I disagreed – and left. I get so angry when people think you need religion to have morals…that you have to believe in god to have a right state of mind. I am an athiest/agnostic, and I have never killed anyone, stolen anything, or done anything on your list of “sins.” I do feel that all religions, AT THEIR CORE, give good moral guidance. However, I do believe that over the thousands of years that religion has been developing – people have been corrupting it into the form it takes today…the basis for every war in history, and responsible for too many unnecessary deaths. Church has lost its place as a spiritual place of clarity, and turned into a place people congregate every week to compare clothing. I think it is so arrogant of ordinary people, like us, to claim that we know anything about a supreme being or the existence of an afterlife. If there is a higher power, which I find doubtful, we are so beneath it that we couldn’t even possibly comprehend its existence. We can’t even explain how ancient Egyptians built the pyramids, and you have the audacity to claim that you know about things beyond our human existence? The Bible was a book, a story, written by PEOPLE, to explain things that they did not understand at the time. As for the movie, aside from his claims that religion is “out there” and stupid – Maher’s claim that it is a divisive thing that is breaking the world apart, seems to me to be irrefutable.
“We have no proof on the exact way that gravity works… yet we are held by gravity to the planet earth.” wait wait one thing , gravity exists (as a force )and its existance is verifiable everytime you throw something . And by the way science in fact is a matter of “reducing the mechanics of everything the lowest possible scope” meaning that science explain big phenomenons by a superposition and accumuulation of many little phenomenons that are not explicated (yet?) but exists since they are experienced science will never “explain” but just make us aware of those micro phenomenons and how to trigger them science is juste plain observation of nature pushed to the extreme so its most likely one of the best ways to try to understand the universe thus trying to prove god wich have never been successfull.
i forgot my sum up again and its “you have evidence of gravity trough senses and very easily reapetable expériences , you dont have the same with catohlic god and bible statings since there is almost nothing reapeatable that u can experience through your senses to confirm the existence of “god” “.
if i am mistaken pliz tell me wich experience you use to confirm the catholic god existance.
There seems to be a lot of fuzzy logic in this discussion! Either God exists or he doesn’t. If he does he deserves all of our devotion and adoration.
So does God exist? Logic would say that if objective truth exists then that is a proof of God. But is truth relative or objective?
Well the concept of relative truth, if you are globally defending it contradicts itself – i.e. it is objectively certain that truth is relative. Thus objectively speaking, truth MUST be objective.
So God exists. Now I would say that you atheists out there better start considering what you will do when you face Him. And you fence sitters had better consider what God will think of those who “demand” some personal revelation when so much has been done already by Him.
“Logic would say that if objective truth exists then that is a proof of God.” that is fuzzy logic explain that .
“But is truth relative or objective? ” TruthS (remenber the S there isnt only ONE) is objective humans are not meaning that we argue and have different wievs witch explains the relativity of the “thruths stated by humans” try thinking as yourself as the center of the universe since your are an individual that helps a lot.
“So God exists.” stating with no proof , since your deduction was not one because not explained just stated . And the reste of you comment is manipulation trying to scare atheists .
to further “TruthS (remenber the S there isnt only ONE) is objective humans are not” because one can claim wathever he wants to be true remenber that stating of truth doenst make truth, its always something that WE self counscious beings admit or not ,and you MUST understand that MANY dont agree with you and that as a whole people think DIFFERENT way that gives RESULTS making everything RELATIVE to them and their thinking relativity doesnt exists there is just many that claims contradictory , opposite , not explainable ,backed by fact or not “sated” truths and they almost ALL claim to be the only one that were the observers RELATIVITY OF BEHAVIORS ,VALORS AND CUSTOMS at least for the open minded.
ok since i cant explain it well i would recommend to read some of Kierkegaard text to understand the relativity of human’s (limited) compréhension of truths.
IIzo,
Much like your comment on how we perceive the existance of Gravity (we sense it by simply tossing a rock into the air.) We can percieve the existance of God by simply looking at the Universe and the complete order that surrounds it. How can one begin to think, that our existance, that all the planets and the stars, the complex structure of the human body, animals, and plans all came into being by mere chance? These little things point to the logical conclusion of intelligent design. For if God did not create us, what would be the point in living? Since we would be just matter living in a material world, doomed to die, and our children and grandchildren doomed to the same life. God created us to show forth his glory, and for us to Know Love and Serve Him.
OH i forgot to reply to Cheryl Connor .Then here i go.
“I have experienced God in a very tangible way and so has every Catholic who attends Mass. There are some who recognise that tangibility and those who do not. But, for me to try to ‘prove it’ to those who have already made up thier mind otherwise is futile…” Ok i may ask you what tangible experience you had of a “Catholic ,as described in the bible, god ” experience and permit us to critizice it (you should now understand that we cant just bielive someone just because he states somthing).
“But, for me to try to ‘prove it’ to those who have already made up thier mind otherwise is futile… ” My mindn is not made up is seek further understanding so please dont be condescendant.
“What about those who HAVE experienced God, in very tangible ways? Would you dismiss so easily the very real and tangible experiences of those Saints to whom Christ has revealed HIMSELF- for thousands of years? What of the Eucharistic Miracle at Luciano, what of the Shroud of Turin, the Tilma of Guadelupe?” as i said i cant just bieleve because you say so and in most cultures there are states of miracle not atributed to you “catholic god” if at least those miracles could be directly stated as gods doing trough experiences then i would bieleve but there is not fact in there…so it stays as possibilities (adding the power greeding church…the doubt is reinforced), actually okay lets bieleve the miracles…what caused them? Why those people and not other , many would merit miracles and are not provided in probability those miracles explain our lack of understanding of the world and explaining the unexplainable by somthing even less explainable is a countrary to logic and is a “far fetched hypothesis”.
And as for the witnesses you should understand the mechanices of mythologies (mythologies are religions “proved?” (at least bielevied nowadays) false but there were followers time and successions of générations can make a fake a true so you should be more critic about everything that seems miraculous.
“HE has provided the empirical evidence you speak of- its there for the world to see.” again “NO” or rather “ok prove it i need links or such to understand those”.
“Well, what I mean is throughout the ENTIRE natural world the Lord has left HIS footprint- From the complexity of the human body, to the harmony with which each of the earths ecosystems balance themselves. The Lord is present in all of it.”
hmmm , complexity is proof of complexity…and harmony of harmony….bu actually nothing is so “harmonious” in nature i would rather said its a big chaos of competing and coexisting creatures that want to stay alive the ones that cant survive dies the others live , there is nothing like harmony but a “ferocious compétiton and forced coexistance” and we can but just admit evolution works fine . And adam and eve like other religious theories about the birth of the world do no result from observations and are just wiev as “myths” in science.
“I will have to finish this discussion another time as I am very tired. Sweet dreams IIzO…
Peace and Christs Blessings, Cheryl” Sorry i understand im very demanding but you may understand that with so many religions/bielef around for so much time (in official history at least) one cant be but stay very cautious about faith and coherence…and~~ have a nice sleep xD
“We can percieve the existance of God by simply looking at the Universe and the complete order that surrounds it. How can one begin to think, that our existance, that all the planets and the stars, the complex structure of the human body, animals, and plans all came into being by mere chance? These little things point to the logical conclusion of intelligent design. For if God did not create us, what would be the point in living? Since we would be just matter living in a material world, doomed to die, and our children and grandchildren doomed to the same life. God created us to show forth his glory, and for us to Know Love and Serve Him.”
Unfortunately for the ones that pushed the observation of nature (scientist) there is no conclusive proof of a “divine” touch , and even when you can think that everything was made by an unique intelligent being you still can’t call it “catholic as stated in the bible” god and cant even claim it(the god) to be a HE a SHE or even ALONE you can just admit the possibility of intelligent design but nothing more.
“For if God did not create us, what would be the point in living? Since we would be just matter living in a material world, doomed to die, and our children and grandchildren doomed to the same life. God created us to show forth his glory, and for us to Know Love and Serve Him.” well on the matérialistic point of view yeah u live you die and nothing more , but science is not absolute so “after life” and others remains possibilities and our human nature would ANYWAY lead us to seek Joy love sex pleasure etc ,materialist arnt pessimists.
About the point of living?….Frankly speaking if we were made by god for a purpose he gaves us, there would still be no meaning in life itself being created for “glory” isnt a meaning in life its just a cause of creation and i find it rather…limited.To me there is no MEANING there is just LIFE you dont need a Purpose we have a nature that makes us answer to our needs (hunger, sex , love,agressivity etc etc) that we (almost?) cant escape and we’ve got that incredible “WILL” to continue to live (actually its easily understandable that those without arent here for us to discuss the matter with them).And i think that people have lots a reasons to procreate as in “continue ou legacy” or simply “ah we made love now we have a baby lets keep him” and simply because it gave our societies more power and we need child to take our trail.
“God created us to show forth his glory, and for us to Know Love and Serve Him.” here is a question : Have you ever doubted of your religion?
But a careful study science does admit to intelligent design. And if that is the case, it only leaves us to seek out God. If you seek long enough, you will find the truth, and will know it when you see it. Provided that you have a mind open to the truth.
So your saying that life exists for us to hunger, desire sex, love, and all that… But it just doesn’t make sense. It makes you contemplate, “Why do we exist the first place?” Religion offers an answer to that question.
Another question :is the pope legitimate to you?(Since i dont know can you precise if there is such a “job” in the books of your religion?
“But a careful study science does admit to intelligent design.” its a possibility not even a theory so “admit” is little to much , its more like “we would have it easier that way” lol but the mechanics tend to proves no “outside” hand than those mechanics itself you could call them “god” but its just a name and not the “catholic god”.
“If you seek long enough, you will find the truth, and will know it when you see it. Provided that you have a mind open to the truth.” totally agrees with you at least it would be nice to be closer of all truths (even though we ;well at least i am ; very limited).
“So your saying that life exists for us to hunger, desire sex, love, and all that… But it just doesn’t make sense. ” no no im not saying we exists FOR that but that we HAVE that there is no meaning in this sentence i was just stating that our lives and societies were sustained by many need we seek to answer and that meanings or not one is bent by his nature (the fact is even if we are made through the same modelling;genes conservations for the win; we still are not completely the same ;chromosome’s crossing over etc; making our individual natures slightly differents).
Yeah religions offers a “cause” to life and even a “meaning” in yours but actually i would like you to explain me what is our meaning to life again.
And also i bielive (well i experienced it) that humans overall just seek “joy” and tries to run from “harm” .Seeking joy is what we all do why wouldnt that be the meaning of our lives?
Seeking Joy and Happiness is the purpose of our lives. But that can only be found in God Himself, our creator. Man was created to know, love, and serve God. That is our purpose. To you, it may sound like an enslavement, but upon careful examination, we see that since God did create us, don’t we owe him our love and respect?
“But that can only be found in God Himself, our creator.” why is that? i dont get this.
“Man was created to know, love, and serve God. That is our purpose.” As stated to me there is no proof of that so is just cant agree.
“To you, it may sound like an enslavement, but upon careful examination, we see that since God did create us, don’t we owe him our love and respect?” Yeah it sounds like enslavement and the fact i dont feel the need to “serve” (even though i dont understand how a supposed omnipotent and almighty being would need to be served )and im reapiting myself but we could critizice “god”’s passivity about a few things….
(sorry for the typos)
Look at it this way – Remember that most skeptical people who take a critical look at all the arguments do not say that God does not exist, but rather that they cannot either prove or disprove His existence. So if God exists and you spend your life denying him, how do you think it will go when you meet Him after death? Of course if he does not exist and you spend your life believing in him and an after-life or not, then it doesn’t matter. This in essence is termed “Pascal’s wager” which you can read more fully if you wish by examining Pascal’s writings.
So it comes down to a critical wager, and making a decision as to which camp you would rather be in when it counts! And once you come down to making an “act of the will” to believe, then everything starts to fall into place. Remember what St. Paul said in the new testament – “I believe – God help my unbelief”. Faith is “an act of will”, made clearly with your intellect and reason in place, but made fully knowing that we do not have all the answers – fully realizing that it is faith and not proof that has taken you there.
Gambling with one’s eternity seems a poor substitute for simply deciding to believe and then asking for help – even the greatest saints did that. Or you can take a risk and say – God – you did not convince me sufficiently. Frankly, I don’t want to be in a situation where I have to begin the conversation with the Almighty by “let me explain”, because I am not sure if the conversation would get that far!
Errant you have totally understood the problem.But bieliving out of fear is not bielieving and you would have to do that for a lot of religions…..that NOT POSSIBLE TO ME meaning that i will probably remains as doubtfull and as discussions cravingn i am right now hoping for convincing arguments but hypocrisy is not a good source of bielief and faith not a good source of argumentation , i wonder what would hades say to me when i go to the underwold lol.After all you are telling me “choose without knowing and just cope with it no matter what” but in my case that cant be done.
And sine your god is all forgiving i dont think ill have problems with him in i found him to be real in a supposed afterlife.
Damn i post to fast i forgot .
“all the arguments do not say that God does not exist, but rather that they cannot either prove or disprove His existence.” i think that actually atheist and bielivers are the same as they think they have the asbolute truth on this matter , one cant hold a truth on the “god” matter ….not when we are so tiny is a biG BIG mostly unknown and extremely complex universe .
and again sorry for the typos most the “is” are “if” and in are “is” xD
IIzO,
If the stove is hot do you touch it? Or do you test the stove first to make sure it isn’t hot? If you believe (for the lack of a better word) that God is forgiving, which it is true he is, why do you test him? Yes God is all forgiving, but you must be reconciled to forgiveness. You see it isn’t that easy just to be “forgiven” by God with out going through the steps of truly being sorry for your sins. That path for seeking forgiveness is narrow and hard to traverse. Look you’re a science student, you make hypothesis you do an experiment, and if your experiment proves your hypothesis it then becomes a theory. Am I correct or not? So based on a hypothesis you go about your way to prove your theory, if it doesn’t work out then you scratch all your work and move on to the next hypothesis. So you judge scientific evidence that will lead you to your hypothesis, and final come to an end at a theory. (I know I have gone over his 3 times but I want to make sure I have it right in my head.)
You see God kind of works in this way, he is a judge of your life, and your sincerity of your repentance, he then make a hypothesis if you shall be saved or not, then his theory is either your salvation or your damnation. The Catechism states:
679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son”.586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.588
What this states which once again not being a learned man, so don’t quote me (as you seem to have a habit of) but it seems to me that if your reject Christ’s love in this world, you chances in the next world are not to great. You’re either on his right or on his left, there is not middle ground. St Francis De Sales states:
This Sovereign Judge by His omnipotent decree will in an instant separate the good from the bad-placing he former on His right hand, and the latter on his left-an eternal separation, after which the two companies will never meet again. After this separation, all consciences shall be laid bare, and the wickedness of the bad will clearly be seen, and how they have despised God: as will the penitence of the good, and the results of God’s grace working in them: for then nothing shall be hid. O my God, how great will the confusion of the one and the bliss of the others!
This is pretty much self explanatory, even to someone that does not even wish to see the truth. You’re either on the winning team, or the losing team. You think your confused now, about this subject, just wait until your Judgment. But all is not lost. AS you have stated God is a forgiving God, like in the parable of the lost son there is much rejoicing at the return home of the ones that are lost and now are found. Hopefully you know the parable, if not it’s in Luke, 15:11-32. So you are lost but you can always return to Our Lord because he is always calling you back home, it all depends on you. That’s right the ball is in your court. But know this God always is calling you, asking you to invite him in. I will leave you with the words of St. Alphonsis Liguori :
By your ingratitude you deserved that he should call you no more: but he has continued to invite you to return to him. And who is it that has called you? It is a God of infinite majesty, who is to be one day your judge, and on whom your eternal happiness or misery depends. And what are you but miserable worms deserving Hell? Why has he called you? To restore to you the life of grace which you have lost. To acquire the grace of God, it would be but little to spend a hundred years in a desert in fasting and penitential austerities. But God offered it to you for a single act of sorrow, and afer your refusal, he has not abandoned you, but has sought after you saying: my son, why dost thou bring thyself to eternal misery?
So as Knight Errant points out why take the gamble? All this time that we have on this earth is but a spec of sand in the world’s largest desert, compared to the time we will be spending in eternity. I will be praying for you to come home
So i’m a miserable worm. Well, thanks that makes me so much more at peace with my oh so benevolent god who will judge me, then likely as not, cast me to eternal hell.
I think i’d rather be a monkeys cousin, born from the earth rather than a broken puppet waiting to be fixed… or thrown away.
Also, Pascal’s wager falls down in two places. Firstly, if you follow the wager out of fear, then that isn’t going to wash with an all powerful god. Secondly, there is more than one god each with their own rules. In fact, forget that…how many different christian sects are there now? How do you know you got the right one? Each one believing slightly different things. Will those differences make the difference between eternal bliss and eternal suffering? I’m surprised you guys aren’t frozen in fear about what you should and shouldn’t do at every moment.
I’ve chosen. Done, dusted, nothing else to worry about. No balancing acts left to do. No extra praying just in case it’s not enough. It’s pretty liberating…you should try it.
Uh actualy to test the stove i put my hand above it if the air above it is hot then the stove it hot….and god is…not a stove , and i dont “bielieve” that god is forgiving or that he even exists im just taking the possibility and making hypothesis out of it.Hm most of what you’ve written after skeet is an explanation from the bible of who and why can judge…but that sounds like the bible is trying to scare people to force them to bielieve…and this is “not righ” imo.
If God exists, he made me an athiest…who are you to question his wisdom?
Fide et Ratio (Faith and Reason)
Serious readers enquire here:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html
Paul: Sorry this took so long to get through… I was hoping to comment on this last week. But it took me that long to read ALL THESE COMMENTS!
Friends:
St. Thomas Aquinas was the greatest medieval philosopher. He is respected by any serious and well read atheist and theist alike.
Thomas successfully shows us the harmony between faith and reason, and between Christianity and philosophy. Aquinas’s views have been very effective, because they apply cohesive scientific methodology to things which are theologically considered.
For a simple look into his very extensive writings, he gives us the FIVE PROOFS of the existence of God. Most armchair (amateur) atheists and agnostics will not like to ponder these mysteries. But just like the mystery of gravity or magnetism or electromagnetism, or any of the other AMAZING things we have in nature which can never be directly seen… these proofs must be pondered. This reliance that schence must have on the unseen and unprovable is most dramatically seen in the athematics of chaotic systems and in particle physics. If we wish to arrive at the truth of a thing we must ponder and apply logic, not feelings to the matter at hand.
As a simple example, consider the mathematic duality of light. Physicists are hard pressed to explain the duality of light without inventing a vocabulary (based upon other natural phenomena) to describe it. Since intuition is the highest form of intelligence, the scientist must use intuition to postulate structures of theories. Scientists must make assertions based upon theories (not all of which can be proven directly, unfortunately).
This is true in theology also. As in hard science, a vocabulary must be built up by man to describe what he thinks he sees. But like modern science, it is an inexact thing really.
The fascinating thing about science and the physical universe is that every time man obtains an answer through experimentation… he unearths a hundred other questions about the universe… questions that we did not even know existed until the one single mystery was solved.
What this means is that the more man unravels through the great gift & mystery of science, the more questions he has about how the universe operates.
Now for those 5 PROOFS:
Aquinas’s Proofs 1 to 3
1 – FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can’t be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn’t itself moved by another). This is God.
2 – FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can’t be an infinite series of causes. There must be a first cause (a cause that isn’t itself caused by another). This is God.
3 – NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing — and so there would be nothing now — which is clearly false. Thus not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.
Aquinas’s Proofs 4 and 5
4 – GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.
5 – INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.
Thomas only scratches the surface here. But the point is that one must shut off reason in order to state emphatically that God does not exist.
IN FACT, I ASSERT THAT TRUE ATHEISM IS A RELIGION OF EMOTION. I say this because atheism makes the assertion that God does not exist. This assertion can not be proven, yet it’s proponents argue most emotionally for it… and yet Thomas’s 5 Proofs still stand. Thus, atheism must be a superstition as opposed to a theological religion.
Paul, I really think that the FIVE PROOFS should be added to the “Magnificent Seven” to make the list “The Great Eight”!
Whaddyasay?
Yay a good answer to critize.
“Since intuition is the highest form of intelligence, the scientist must use intuition to postulate structures of theories.” <- so ALL intuitions are TRUE? i cant agree with that intutions become theories when proven with facts if not then the intuition stays as pure hypothétical imagination.
Now about theology…hm théology has like a start that “the bible is true and have a meaning” thus it’s not a science to me since they took non-facts as fact and are ethnocentred to the western catholicism and are not considering other religions.
About the 5 points:
“1 – FIRST MOVER: Some things are in motion, anything moved is moved by another, and there can’t be an infinite series of movers. So there must be a first mover (a mover that isn’t itself moved by another). This is God.” This is explaining the unexplainable by the MORE unexplainable my question is “WHO MOVED GOD?” and “WHY SHOULD THERE BE A FIRST MOVER AND NO “INFINITE SERIES OF MOVERS” both infinite and “finished” hypothesis of that all moving thing are both equal in the very fact our mind cant understand choosing one as absolute is a just a facility of the mind with no backing.
“2 – FIRST CAUSE: Some things are caused, anything caused is caused by another, and there can’t be an infinite series of causes. There must be a first cause (a cause that isn’t itself caused by another). This is God.” Same critic as the number 1 proof Both the finite and infinite answers are equal since our minds cant compréhend it remenber we are LIMITED beings.
“3 – NECESSARY BEING: Every contingent being at some time fails to exist. So if everything were contingent, then at some time there would have been nothing — and so there would be nothing now — which is clearly false. Thus not everything is contingent. So there is a necessary being. This is God.” To exists and to be self conscious are different concepts , imo the you “exist” before you are “self conscious” and again To BE and to be SELF CONSCIOUS are not the same thing you dont need to be self counscious to EXIST.SO God doesnt need to exist for the universe to EXIST.
“4 – GREATEST BEING: Some things are greater than others. Whatever is great to any degree gets its greatness from that which is the greatest. So there is a greatest being, which is the source of all greatness. This is God.” What do you mean by “GREATEST” you mean in physical scale? So the “supposed”god is Physically BIG? like a star? a galaxy? 1rst You dont need to be an “intelligent being” to be big….i just dont get the point here the whole universe just make the whole universe not “god” the point is not proved.
“5 – INTELLIGENT DESIGNER: Many things in the world that lack intelligence act for an end. Whatever acts for an end must be directed by an intelligent being. So the world must have an intelligent designer. This is God.” Rather than “INTELLIGENT” more like “repeatable phenomenon” the form of “intelligence” and “end” you speak of are not proven there is no “end” just actions and consequences even our so called “intelligence” is just actions and consequences living by themselves the only difference is that we are aware of ourselves and most of the rest of the universe is not and to further it this is not even the begining of a proof of a “catholic bible god”.
“I say this because atheism makes the assertion that God does not exist. This assertion can not be proven, yet it’s proponents argue most emotionally for it” for that i agree , but the five proofs are not since middle age philosophics have declined those “proof” again and again
Richard Eis,
I didn’t call you a miserable worm, you came upon that conclusion yourself. I just gave you the means to find the answer. Don’ be too hard on yourself though, God is forgiving, as long as you seek his forgiveness. Forgiveness isn’t given without some kind of penance though. For example if you ask someone to forgive you that you have wrongs, you must feel somewhat guilty for doing that wrong, therefore guilt is your penance. If you have wronged society in some way, and have to be incarcerated, then the incarceration is your penance. If you truly feel sorry for your sins and humble yourself before God asking his forgiveness, then the act of humility is your penance. Do you understand what I’m trying to point out? I know I have the right religion because it is the true religion of Our Lord and Savior. So I’m not frozen in fear, I do know what I should do at every moment, and it is Our Lord that guides me.
llzO,
Nothing I quoted was from the bible, nor do I believe that the bible tries to scare people into believing, the bible is a guide for us to bring us closer to God. Nothing to scary (well besides the apocalypse) nor does it try to scare people into submission. If you would be so kind as to point out where the bible states this scary submission people control, I would love to see it. You see it is people like you llzO (don’t mean to stereo-type) that when faced with the truth of religion, specifically Catholic religion, don’t quite know how to respond to it. Especially when it is put in a way that can’t be emotional manipulated. You can attack all you want the 5 proofs, or my earlier posts by using big words, and screaming louder than I, but the fact still remains the same that your trying to manipulate a valid point through emotion, and not logic.
Still praying for you both.
“Nothing I quoted was from the bible, nor do I believe that the bible tries to scare people into believing, the bible is a guide for us to bring us closer to God. Nothing to scary (well besides the apocalypse) nor does it try to scare people into submission. If you would be so kind as to point out where the bible states this scary submission people control, I would love to see it.” So you were trying to scare me lol.
“You see it is people like you llzO (don’t mean to stereo-type) that when faced with the truth of religion, specifically Catholic religion, don’t quite know how to respond to it. Especially when it is put in a way that can’t be emotional manipulated.” Sorry to me all religions and myth are the same as in “not proven” so dont assume things for me please .
“You can attack all you want the 5 proofs, or my earlier posts by using big words, and screaming louder than I, but the fact still remains the same that your trying to manipulate a valid point through emotion, and not logic.”Wait what do you mean be screaming? im just using CAPS to emphasis the CAPITAL words in my argumentation , but please if you want to refute my argumentation use argumentation to do so if you dont my counter argument stay valid for me.
“your trying to manipulate a valid point through emotion, and not logic.” Where is the emotion?Please quote me and point that out and argument it because stating it doesnt help.
Just to further ,stating without argumentation really doesnt help at all, Skeet you can do better than that.
If you want we can just make a discussion about D’aquina (he is french like me ive already read a fex things about his philosophy so lets do it ).
Hi IIzO,
Thankyou for the time and thought in responding to my post. …
IIzO states:
“Ok i may ask you what tangible experience you had of a “Catholic ,as described in the bible, god ” experience and permit us to critizice it (you should now understand that we cant just bielive someone just because he states somthing).”
First, I wouldn’t expect you to believe something just because someone said it… That understanding has been implied, in my responses to you. Second, your welcome to criticize whatever you would like. And, respectfully understand that anothers opinion of my experiences doesn’t change the truth of the experience. The Lord has blessed me with a few very tangible experiences but, I feel that sharing them would be little more then ” because I said so”, in your eyes. The Lord speaks to me and touches me every time I recieve HIM in Holy Communion. Its not about ‘warm and fuzzies’ – its about a living, breathing relationship. I would recommend you look into the Shroud of Turin and the Tilma of Guadelupe.
IIzO says:
“But, for me to try to ‘prove it’ to those who have already made up thier mind otherwise is futile… ” My mindn is not made up is seek further understanding so please dont be condescendant.
It was not my intent to be condescending- not in the least and I’m sorry that it appeared that way. I did not respond the way that I did to insult you. I don’t know that sharing my personal experiences with God and the Blessed Mother would convince you- as I stated before ( and as you pointed out ) the ” because I said so ” arguments don’t hold much weight in discussions with strangers.
IIzO says:
“… as i said i cant just bieleve because you say so and in most cultures there are states of miracle not atributed to you “catholic god” if at least those miracles could be directly stated as gods doing trough experiences then i would bieleve but there is not fact in there…so it stays as possibilities (adding the power greeding church…the doubt is reinforced), actually okay lets bieleve the miracles…what caused them? Why those people and not other , many would merit miracles and are not provided in probability those miracles explain our lack of understanding of the world and explaining the unexplainable by somthing even less explainable is a countrary to logic and is a “far fetched hypothesis”.
The Shroud of Turin and the Tilma of Guadelupe and the Eucharistic Miracle at Luciano- These are all very tangible and very real experiences that can be scrutized and investigated, by modern science. The Eucharistic Miracle at Luciano happened ~ 700 years ago ( I think, not entirely sure of the date ). The host turned to real flesh and the blood into real blood. Neither the flesh nor the blood have decomposed over the centuries and have been tested by modern science. The flesh is from the human heart and the blood is type AB- the same type as is found on the Shroud of Turin. This is but one of the many miraculous and very tangible occurances the Lord has blessed us with. To whom the Lord chooses to bless with a miracle and how HE chooses to reveal HIMSELF is really up to HIM. Jesus the Lord Our God walked among us, as one of us, and this still wasn’t enough for some- there will always be skeptics and always be those who close themselves off to HIM refusing to believe what is laid out before them( not stating that you are one of these people ).
IIzO:
And as for the witnesses you should understand the mechanices of mythologies (mythologies are religions “proved?” (at least bielevied nowadays) false but there were followers time and successions of générations can make a fake a true so you should be more critic about everything that seems miraculous.
My faith in Jesus is not hinged on ‘miracles’. And, I don’t just believe something because someone else labeled it “miraculous”. A God that loves HIS children ( creations ) will find a way to reach them and the God of Abraham has done just this. For thousands and thousands and thousands of years HE has been calling us, forming us, sculpting us and saving us.
IIzO says:
“HE has provided the empirical evidence you speak of- its there for the world to see.” again “NO” or rather “ok prove it i need links or such to understand those”.
Well, you could try reading the book ” The Language of God ” by Francis S. Collins- my father-in-law recommended it to me ( although I have not had time to read it, yet) Dr. Francis Collins is one of the countrys leading geneticists and head of the Human Genome Project.
IIzo says:
“Well, what I mean is throughout the ENTIRE natural world the Lord has left HIS footprint- From the complexity of the human body, to the harmony with which each of the earths ecosystems balance themselves. The Lord is present in all of it.”
hmmm , complexity is proof of complexity…and harmony of harmony….bu actually nothing is so “harmonious” in nature i would rather said its a big chaos of competing and coexisting creatures that want to stay alive the ones that cant survive dies the others live , there is nothing like harmony but a “ferocious compétiton and forced coexistance” and we can but just admit evolution works fine .
I suppose you could look at ecosystems that way. I see ecosystems and the way we all interact – as harmonious. The fact that plants breathe CO2 and make O2 and animals and humans need O2 and make CO2 ( obviously this a nutshell discription )… to the fact that the oceans and the earth if left alone to ‘do its thing’ will eventually clean itself up of all the polution. I find all this to be beautiful.
IIzO says:
And adam and eve like other religious theories about the birth of the world do no result from observations and are just wiev as “myths” in science.
If, in the book of Genesis, God wants to use the term “day” to discribe to HIS children the ( X) amount of time it took to create the earth and all the creatures in it – then thats fine with me. If it took God 1 year, 1000 years or 10,000 years etc. and HE wants to call X amount of time, a day- fine by me. My faith is not so fragile to be shaken by this. There is a saying that states- if science and theology don’t match then either the science or the theology is bad. The Catholic Church has not condemed evolution- you may want to look further into Pope John Pauls IIs statements regarding this.
Once again, I am exhausted… so, sweet dreams IIzO.
Peace and Christs Blessings, Cheryl
“. The host turned to real flesh and the blood into real blood.” that statement is not proved…its just “said”
“The flesh is from the human heart and the blood is type AB- the same type as is found on the Shroud of Turin.” this isnt a miracle…blood isnt.
“I suppose you could look at ecosystems that way. I see ecosystems and the way we all interact – as harmonious. The fact that plants breathe CO2 and make O2 and animals and humans need O2 and make CO2 ( obviously this a nutshell discription )… to the fact that the oceans and the earth if left alone to ‘do its thing’ will eventually clean itself up of all the polution. I find all this to be beautiful.” this is subjective , the observation of today coexistance/competition of species still explain the opportunity caused by Co2 consumming and 02 providing (even if in fact we use carbones too but not in its gaz form and plants use 02 too you kno )uni cellular life form making the environment 02 charged and then 02 using uni cellular creature could have evovled and make profit of that…that hypothesis is less far fetched that your emotional one.
“If, in the book of Genesis, God wants to use the term “day” to discribe to HIS children the ( X) amount of time it took to create the earth and all the creatures in it – then thats fine with me. If it took God 1 year, 1000 years or 10,000 years etc. and HE wants to call X amount of time, a day- fine by me.” as said earlier your prejudice is that “everything in the book is true”…and again this is not a fact but a decision you took via faith.
“There is a saying that states- if science and theology don’t match then either the science or the theology is bad.” if science and theology dont match its because theology is not a science its “text explication” of the bible not based on observation of environment but only on the prejudice that the bible (and no other scacred book of any other ;be it monotheist or not ; religion) meaning that theolgy is ethnocentric ,obtuse , and lack scientific approche….so no theology is “bad” for its lack of inteterest on the world.
“The Catholic Church has not condemed evolution- you may want to look further into Pope John Pauls IIs statements regarding this.” I really liked the open minded John Paul II the best pope ever if you ask me , no he didnt condemed evolution , not meaning that meaning dont ,do you Cheryl?I remenber seeing priest say that since faith didnt need proof evolution is not a problem its as simple as that .
Thank you for answering =) .
About Dr. Francis Collins : he says “I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.” He just says he DECIDED to because it was more convenient to him , he surrendered his critical mind to me its the worst thing to do.
And he says again :
“But why couldn’t this be God’s plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be.” So even people reading the book should be more doubtfull of it but the problem is that he stated that he bielieves in evolution facts …making him say that the bible isnt a very tangible book .
Hm i must apology about the “he surrendered his critical mind to me its the worst thing to do.” the fact that faced with death atrocity one cant simply accept is very understandable “the will live a better life somewhere else” sounds better for the heart but its not an argument its just a decision for emotional convenience.
Even if Aquinas is right, that does not prove the existence of the christian god, only a first cause. That first cause needs to be neither intelligent, powerful nor caring.
The other major problem with Aquinas is that there must have been something before the “god”, because as he says, all things have a mover. Unless god moved himself. In which case, why couldn’t the universe have just moved itself. Why then a need to tack on one more mover, before ending.
You are right Skeet, i am not a worm, i am a monkeys cousin…
Bielieving because you NEED to is OKAY .But this isnt about proof or even theology now i underrstand that its all about refusing doubt wich is a pain in the aXX , religions (yeah polytheist and monotheist and even the theist and the atheist religions that implies “not surnatural but more complex than us” beings” are all on the same plane .) All we can do is strive for freedom of religions ,freedom of expression ,freedom of atheism and such..NO prosélitism in schools remenber Sciences are NOT religions and are far more coherent to explain lots of phenomenon in the world we interact with remenber that evolution exists and is a good answer when employed to understand the diversity of species ,(intelligent design was proven not exact and not conclusive “its like just saying we dont know how and saying ET made them or maybe fairies or budda or catholic god or unicorn? ,those are
not made trough observation and u cant prove it to be the act of any of the cited “not yet proven not to exists” being?”.
I aggre with Richard with the aquina “first mover” hypothesis.
Richard can you ASSURE me that a DESIGNER OF ALL being doesnt exists?(i know that to bielive in something you should first prove it to exists and not that it exists….but please try to answer , for my sake~~ please please again)
llzO,
I do have something to say back to you, yet I can not think of it right now please allow me some time to pray on a correct response to your response. I have been neglectful in my duties as a husband seing as all I work until 730 pm or so and then come home and hop online like the borg, I have to spend some time with my wife. But could you still direct me where the bible has this submissive mind control over millions and millions of people would still love to see it. So until tomorow:)
Richard,
You know a funny thing poped into my head when you refered to yourself as a monkeys cousin, that funny thing is the sog “Monkeys uncle”, and I can’t get rid of it, I’ve been singing it all day. Very frustrating. So, until they find the missing link, sorry your created by God just like me.
Ps For both of you, I believe that the church believes in micro-evolution, not macro-evolution.
She loves the monkeys uncle, and the monkeys uncle is ape for me…
Sorry had to do it now this song can be stuck in all of our heads;)
IIZO – short answer, no. For exactly the same reason that i can’t prove that somewhere on earth there isn’t a pink magical unicorn ready to eat me if i’m a naughty boy. I just know it’s so unlikely that fretting over it and praying it doesn’t happen is a waste of time that could be spent investigating things that are pretty cool and do exist. Anyway, quite frankly, a designer would have done a better job.
Skeet – A set of micro evolutions becomes a macro evolution once they accumulate enough. Also a small change in DNA can cause a huge difference in the shape of a full grown animal if the mutation fires early enough. An extra cell in the wrong place at conception can grow into an extra full arm or something. It really doesn’t take much.
We have found “missing links” look up tiktaalik. Or for humans, how about Australopithecus afarensis. I assume thats what you mean.
Skeet King , ok im going to wait and thank you about being so serious about it .*cant wait till tomorrow*
Richard ; ok you argumentation is coherent i agree.but why “a designer would have done a better job.” ?
It would be helpful here if folks could put their responses through a spelling & grammar checker. The many errors are a distraction to what is an enjoyable and exhilarating conversation.
My own writing skills always get challenged when I engage in a good discussion like this… and I don’t wish for my brother atheists & Christians to think I can not write well (;-))
Just some points I would like to interject.
First:
To state that “If intuition is the highest form of intelligence”… therefore I must be saying ALL INTUITION IS TRUE… is what is known as a ‘red herring’. The serious reader knows I am not asserting that. It is as silly as accusing one of saying that because one said that experimentation is the highest form of ‘truth validation’ therefore ALL EXPERIMENTS must yield the TRUTH about a thing. Surely you can see that this is illogical! Even a careless read of my comment reveals that I never said or even implied that.
Some experimentation is flawed, some intuition can be flawed! Nevertheless, the greatest scientific discoveries (except for a very few that were truly accidental) were tested and validated because some determined soul had an intuition about something. That intuition was at first NOT based upon any EMPIRICAL data (which is WHY it had to be tested to determine if it was true). All reasonable folks call this INTUITION.
In the animal kingdom… we see a startling LACK of intuition, (even among the most advanced primates) memory and abstraction… principally because there is something present in the human mind (call it a soul if you like) which the animals do not fully possess. Animals possess some of the attributes of memory & abstraction but nothing like what we have. In fact our government (and the now defunct Soviet government) had been throwing billions of dollars for the past 80 years trying to get the most advanced animal species to exhibit human like thinking and abstraction qualities… but to no avail. They have made little or no progress and have given up completely in most areas.
Anyone who seriously studies science knows that before any postulation, there must be human observation accompanied by intuition. In fact, theories can not be formulated unless the human mind first: OBSERVES, second: ABSTRACTS, and third: POSTULATES. The postulation is then tested with EXPERIMENTATION. There are more stages to this, but for brevity sake I will just say that finally there is the APPLICATION of the knowledge… which in itself requires IMAGINATION and further ABSTRACTION for it to benefit man. Man has always applied INTUITION concomitantly with his intelligence in order to postulate a theory. Only then can a means of testing the theory be devised (again by man’s intellect and intuition). Unfortunately, when we stopped teaching logic and philosophy in the public & parochial school systems, people began to forget these basic and mechanical steps that man goes through in order to explore the universe we have been given. We still must use these steps… but we have nearly forgotten that they are uniquely human and have a spiritual as well as temporal dimension. I can take any historical account of any great scientist and walk you through their biographical story… and you will be hard pressed to tell me with a straight face that the great scientists do not use intuition. And so it can be rightly said that intuition is the highest form of intelligence. The world’s greatest modern mathematicians know this and have readily admitted it (even the atheists and so-called agnostics admit this), the world’s greatest scientists know this, the world’s greatest theologians know this… and know a few atheists who read this blog know it too brothers & sisters. Read any biography of any great man or woman of science or mathematics and you will come to understand this reality.
Second:
Theology does not begin with the Bible, at least for the Catholic mind it doesn’t! Theology begins with existence. This is also true of the believing Jew. I believe it can also be said of most serious (however imperfect) other religions.
Though the Catholic Church GAVE us the inspired Word of God (biblios), it is not the starying point for the Catholic thinker. CREATION is the starting point for the Catholic intellectual.
The PERFECT INTELLECTUAL JOY which comes from being a Catholic is rooted in the knowledge that God exists, God is omnipotent, God is omnipresent, God is perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful, God became man and glorified/justified man & woman by His own sacrifice when God suffered for us and He sustains us still. And finally, the joy is made complete by the PERSONAL knowledge of God’s love for me.
Nevertheless, God creates (and continues to create) a universe where intellectual beings can exercise free will. Distinct subsistent beings with an intellectual nature excercising free will to love or not love God & eachother in return… THAT is WHO and WHAT we are! Therefore, the mystery of free choice continues to work in our lives.
As for the Christian God… THIS is a very BIG subject. Some of you rightly point out that just because St. Thomas Aquinas’s Five Proofs are true… that does not necessarily point to a God like the Triune God we Christians know and love. I say that one must read the rest of Aquinas to realize the many true links he makes when he describes Heaven, the angels, man, and the Creator.
A final word: There are those ho would enter a discussion like this with their minds closed to God (for a variety of what may be very personal reasons). But there also may be those who come to a discussion (even those who read the comments but do not post) like this because they have doubts. This latter group is just much more objective than the former because their minds are open. To this latter group, I would like to point out that one must read BOTH sides carefully. There are many good resources on the internet for helping one understand the Truth about God and man. But there are also many bad sources which attempt to address the same. The Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years. She has settled all the major & minor disputes about the identity of Jesus and the identity of Man… and she has done so in a way which can not be proven to be wrong. This is the reason I returned to the Faith of my birth… because she has never contradicted herself in Faith & Morals… despite the imperfect sinners who serve the Church, IN the Church. I find that to be miraculous.
I come to this discussion as a 51 year old man who had abandoned belief in God by the time I was 12 years old. IT WAS A LONG AND AMAZING JOURNEY BACK TO THEISM, Christianity, and finally the TAP ROOT of Christianity, which is the Catholic Church. But DO NOT CONFUSE religion with Faith. Religion is a support system based upon a deposit of Truth. Faith is (by contrast) WHOLELY AND COMPLETELY A GIFT from the Holy Trinity! You can not GET Faith. You can not DECIDE to have Faith. You can APPLY REASON to help you ARRIVE at Faith… but REASON ALONE can not generate or sustain faith.
I hope you are ALL hunting for the Truth… as opposed to trying to win an argument.
Happy hunting.
Ave Maria!
Oh, one last thing: A mathematician once calculated the statistical probability of man evolving to our present state of intelligence based upon what we know about the entire animal kingdom and natural selection.
He used the world’s most powerful computer to do this. In the end… he abandoned atheism and became a THEIST. He said that when he was done with his mathematical modeling (he had set out to prove that evolution was a mathematical probability) he calculated that the probability of man simply evolving to our present state of complexity was equivalent to a tornado coming through a junk yard of parts yard and leaving a fully assembled Volkswagen in it’s place! LOL!
Interesting, NO?
First anwer to you last comment (the one just above)
“A mathematician once calculated the statistical probability of man evolving to our present state of intelligence based upon what we know about the entire animal kingdom and natural selection.
He used the world’s most powerful computer to do this. In the end… he abandoned atheism and became a THEIST. He said that when he was done with his mathematical modeling (he had set out to prove that evolution was a mathematical probability) he calculated that the probability of man simply evolving to our present state of complexity was equivalent to a tornado coming through a junk yard of parts yard and leaving a fully assembled Volkswagen in it’s place! LOL!
Interesting, NO?” lol thats called Probability not “false” and the very fact we are here speaks for itself…it worked . As in a 100000000000000000 different card game the you have got a looot of possibilities not to have the 5 card you want , and its not because there are a lot of possibilities that you must reject the possibility you can draw it…so you argument is emotional , and the fact we even exists make the possibility …..real?
Now an answer to you other post pascendi.
the fact is that what you called intuition could be also called imagination…i have intuitions to about ufo’s existance god’s non existance even about what other’s may be preparing for food on the flat next to me…intuitions are born from subjective interpetations (not explanations) of happenings ;meaning that you cant say “its like that” but “i imagined it like that” and then tests it by experimenting and most of the time we discover mechanism we didnt think in our “intuition” and sometime we are proven to be wrong about that intuition but intuition are nothing without experimentation that mere imagination so…what do you want to say about intuition again?that it “proves” something when actually intuition is about having no proof but yet giving a search way ?Then again catholic god is not proven.I do not understand why you talk about animals.
Yes experiences can be flawed (thats why the scientist constantly debate) but YEAH scientific explanation yield to show the “truth” or at least to be the closer possible to it.
If theology was a science it could prove god by science….and it didnt…and if theology’s start of tough was the very existence of the thinking subject itself it should not take the bible as “absolute truth” and that is not what is done by theologist in every religions.And again we refuted the “five proof” and you didnt answer to our argumentation with argumentation so you didnt answer at all for me.About faith and religion you are completely right.
And what is this “CREATION” you speak about?
“. She has settled all the major & minor disputes about the identity of Jesus and the identity of Man… and she has done so in a way which can not be proven to be wrong. This is the reason I returned to the Faith of my birth… because she has never contradicted herself in Faith & Morals… despite the imperfect sinners who serve the Church, IN the Church. I find that to be miraculous.” many other do not agree first others judeo christian etc church….nothing seems really settled.
“The PERFECT INTELLECTUAL JOY which comes from being a Catholic is rooted in the knowledge that God exists, God is omnipotent, God is omnipresent, God is perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful, God became man and glorified/justified man & woman by His own sacrifice when God suffered for us and He sustains us still.” well Any poeple with strong bieliefs are into “PERFECT INTELLECTUAL JOY” its just proves you are ok with what you bieleve in…really dont say it as if it was an argument since many not agreeing with your views said so to me.
“I come to this discussion as a 51 year old man who had abandoned belief in God by the time I was 12 years old. IT WAS A LONG AND AMAZING JOURNEY BACK TO THEISM, Christianity, and finally the TAP ROOT of Christianity, which is the Catholic Church.” Aw ive been told such things about many other religions and even about people being atheist after long time in the church and even people quitting coming back and quitting again ….this is not an argument again.
“Faith is (by contrast) WHOLELY AND COMPLETELY A GIFT from the Holy Trinity! You can not GET Faith.” i ve got the intuition you have been told so and just accepted it as real…am i wrong?
“You can APPLY REASON to help you ARRIVE at Faith… but REASON ALONE can not generate or sustain faith.” Of course reason cant generate or sustain faith , faith is about bieliving without having the need of proof or logic we all know that .
“Therefore, the mystery of free choice continues to work in our lives.” Oh about freedom i would like first to ask you if we can debate separatly about it (because as a child its one of the things i ve been thinking about again and again same for the “first mover” thing of aquina) because its and interesting subject and i dont want to mix it here directly so…please master xavier could you make a new thread for that ?=)
“I hope you are ALL hunting for the Truth… as opposed to trying to win an argument.
Happy hunting.
Ave Maria!” there is nothing better than to oppose wievs to get some truth i automatically try to oppose what i think not sufficiently argumented and flawed until something i cant oppose with reasoning appears.
IIzO: Thanks for the fast reply. Sorry I did not more precisely address your objections to Thomas’ proofs. I will do so in a later comment because I intend to disassemble them lexically.
The subject of freedom and contingency (the first mover and causality) ARE quite interesting. They do deserve a discussion of their own.
As for probability: The statistical mathematician felt that the negative exponent of probability (in the case of evolution alone as the explanation for the human species) was far too large to be an accident. (Number too small).
IIzO, apparently this DID have an EMOTIONAL impact upon him and so he abandoned atheism. He did so, because he felt that the probability of us being an accident was entirely way too many magnitudes (negative powers of ten) SMALL.
When Copernicus noticed the retrograde motion of the planets… it had an EMOTIONAL and intellectual impact on him which caused him to abandon heliocentrism. The similarity between the two is obvious enough. The difference between the two is (as we agreed earlier) the first case led someone to Faith (which was not by reason alone… albeit reason helped). The second case is a man arriving at a truth which he did not possess before.
All I conclude from this is that someone who knows a great deal more than I do about mathematics, natural selection, the evolutionary process in the human species, and probability… had what he felt was sufficient EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to abandon atheism.
As for the many religions claiming to have the truth… JUST BECAUSE MANY CLAIM THIS, DOES NOT MEAN THAT NONE POSSESS the truth.
“As for probability: The statistical mathematician felt that the negative exponent of probability (in the case of evolution alone as the explanation for the human species) was far too large to be an accident. (Number too small).” hum All of that doesnt make a “it couldnt have happened” again and since the mechanism is here…well it happened its like trying to say on my 10000000000 card game that “oh no this couldnt have happened the probability was too low compared to others draws” …its sensless probability is (the name speaks for itself) doenst make “truth” but mutlitple possiblities without say no to any (within the paramaters) so the mathematician doesnt make sense and other (yeah mathematician and scientist) says “hey thats probability it means nothing just that we dont know the outcome ” if u can deny that probabilities are not truths then….i will find it hard to discuss with you.
“When Copernicus noticed the retrograde motion of the planets… it had an EMOTIONAL and intellectual impact on him which caused him to abandon heliocentrism. The similarity between the two is obvious enough. The difference between the two is (as we agreed earlier) the first case led someone to Faith (which was not by reason alone… albeit reason helped). The second case is a man arriving at a truth which he did not possess before.” I agree with everything said there =).
“All I conclude from this is that someone who knows a great deal more than I do about mathematics, natural selection, the evolutionary process in the human species, and probability… had what he felt was sufficient EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to abandon atheism.” the problem is that other made it the other way…so its not an evidence sorry i would rather say that even if every would it shouldnt make an excuse to try to understand yourself and make conclusion yourself, im not a lemming (my teachers/friend find this very annoying about me since i wont just trust anything they will say just because they state it).
“As for the many religions claiming to have the truth… JUST BECAUSE MANY CLAIM THIS, DOES NOT MEAN THAT NONE POSSESS the truth.” i totally agree and i cant add “IT DOEST NOT MEAN THAT ANY DEFINITLY POSSES the truther either”.
The basis of all my reflection (or at least i try to) is myself since (ive began doubting my sense from the time i was a child since i saw forms that i intrpreted for what they were not (lol scared of the monsters shadow) ).
=) thank you again for taking time replying.
There is a fundamental difference in our logical methodology which can be summed up as follows: I believe in something (someone) who can not be proven to exist (at least by your criteria).
You are asserting that something (or someone) DOESN’T exist. Neither of us has a greater burden of proof. But based upon the teleological arguments… I have more evidence of an intelligent creator than you do. Statistical probability has a great deal to do with it but it is not the only factor. There is also the great mystery of human love… which is problematic for the atheist. I promised I would revisit Aquinas… and I will later (right now I’m busy trying to teach my 9 year old boy Flash development).
I assert God exists, you assert He does not.
The consequences for me (If I’m wrong) are not too serious. The consequences for you (if you are wrong), might be exceedingly serious.
However, because God is Merciful… if you really continue in perusing the Truth, then only one of two things will happen to you: 1.) You will discover Him by reason and by faith (but by faith FIRST of all). 2.) You will not discover Him (for He may choose for whatever reason to hide Himself from your mind)… but He will be merciful to you for TRYING to pursue the Truth. All of this assumes you are TRYING as hard as you can to be intellectually honest. Intellectual honesty is a great challenge to believer and non believer alike!
But logically… I am making a safer conclusion in my theism. I get to live a happy and joyful life. I am not weighed down by any serious sins, I know the one who created me and He knows me. If I do commit a mortal sin, I have recourse to confession and absolution. When God forgives… He forgets!
For I am not a lemming either. I question EVERYTHING. St. Paul says “TEST EVERYTHING”. But theism was the most logical choice for me. Though I had absolutely no belief in God from the age of 12 to about the age of 20… I was constantly searching for anything I could learn about the universe. When I did begin studying religion… it was from the perspective of one who believed in no one and nothing.
I’ll leave you with this tonight: One of the most well known modern atheists (Dr. Carl Sagan) once convinced me that God existed while I was reading one of his many books. He did this rather by accident. He was pointing out that there were not enough neural interconnections in the most advanced human brain to store EVERYTHING there was to know about a SINGLE GRAIN OF SAND.
Aquinas calls this part of the teleological proof.
More later.
Ave Maria… gratia plena
Still praying, I will respond tomorrow. Had a very long day behind a big brown truck. I’m just frazzled, and can not put my full effort into it. Sorry to dissapoint.
Richard,
If micro-evolution turned into macro-evolution, and things grew arms and such, why do we only have 2 arms I could really use a third in m line of work. I’m not doubting that animals can change so on and so forth, but why did we have to come from monkeys and not birds, or platapuses, or squirells, why monkeys what makes them so special? We were (humans) created by God to watch over the monkeys not to join to them.
I sincerely want to apologize for not having been able to reply to the comments like I had been before. I’ve had a busy shedule involving some running around, a sleepover, and a birthday party. But admist it all, I was able to have a conversation with a friend of mine, in which she and I came to an agreement on one small thing. (The conversation wasn’t partularly about this topic, but it can be applied.) People don’t need to be lectured to, to prove the existance of God. There is enough evidence and argument to get somewhere if they are open to it, but if they aren’t looking for God, they’ll never find Him.
Another thing both she and I agreed on, is that in order to fully grasp everything (the concept of religion, Faith in God, the reality of Sin and Satan,) one must have a spiritual experience. You can’t just go to Church on Sunday, and expect to feel God’s presence in your life. You must seek Him, you must be open to Him. You must be silent and listen, so as to hear Him speak in your heart. If you never have that Spiritual Experience, no matter how hard you try, you’ll never be able to fully understand Religion and Faith.
You Atheists can be described in a short statement. “Dogs chasing Cars.” You argue on and on, whether God exists or not. And are open to every possibility. (It’s possible that an Intelligent Designer Exists. It’s possible He doesn’t exist.) If you were to ever arrive at an absolute, you simply wouldn’t know what to do! Because you are not open to the truth! You are open to possibility. And if you are so skeptical about everything, I can see no point in placing trust or faith in anyone or anything. Skepticism will simply destroy your understanding of the world. And followed by skepticism is relativity. Where, in the end, after being so skeptical on the existance of God, you’ll simply say, “Well, it doesn’t really matter. I’ve been a ‘good’ person. That’s all that matters.” And collapse into a disordered state where you will never be able to seperate fact from fiction.
llzO,
You wanted a comment that you could comment on, yet I don’t quite think that I can give you what you’re looking for. You have stated in earlier comments that you don’t believe in God, simply because we can’t prove it without using the Bible. You have stated that the bible is pretty much a book of fiction, and has no “proof” to its validity. You have also stated that the church controls mass waves of people to be led into a mental submissiveness, and that the basis of your reflection is yourself, so all your arguments, and criticisms come from you and you alone. You have also stated that you’re a biology student, and I can see that your very intelligent and can handle yourself quite well. I’m not trying to make you more prideful, that isn’t my goal at all, and I’m just stating the obvious.
You stated earlier on Tuesday\Wednesday that I was assuming that you only discredited the Catholic religion. What I was trying to say was the I only know of the Catholic religion, in which I am trying t defend. I did not take for granted that you believed in anything, or any God for that matter. I beg to differ wit that. You see what you don’t quite see, or maybe you do, is that you in your own way view yourself as god. Therefore you have to ability and the presence of mind to actually believe. So in turn that does indeed make you a theist. Just a theist that believes in oneself as god.
Now I’m not saying that you’re a “god” and have phenomenal cosmic powers, or are omnipotent, I’m just saying that you sir have a case of narcissism (well maybe not narcissism, but I don’t know the word for thinking as yourself as a god, I’m sure I know it but it is very late and had a long day and the word just escapes my fragile little mind). You can not “accept” without validity the existence of a higher being than yourself, let alone worship that being. I can’t prove to you that this higher being does indeed exist, and praise shall be given to that being. That isn’t the point of this comment for me to prove to you without any doubts that God does exist. My point is to prove that there is no such thing as an atheist. Believing in oneself, is still believing in something am I not correct? So is it safe to assume that in your belief that you can prove the non-existence of God for lack of tangible evidence, is in a way a self-worship. I mean your over bearing in confidence to prove us theists wrong, and you have done many studies on the fact that science can (for the lack of a better word) prove that God doesn’t exist. So wouldn’t school or the institute of higher education be comparable to a place of worship.
You go there looking for answers seeking knowledge that will help you down the path in which you have chosen. Not unlike myself and most theists going to church, synagogue, or other places of worship. Do you not sit down and listen to a teacher, as we do listening to a preacher? Do you not have text books that are full of answers to help you achieve your destiny, like we seek or ultimate destiny? Do these institutions not control others the way of grades, pass or fail? Do not millions attended schools looking for what you have gained? I mean talk about mind control, and such, schools are just places of worship spitting out pantheists in one way or another. No you don’t have to believe that “G”od exists but you can deny the you view yourself as a “g”od, of course without using the “g” word. But all the same would you please prove to me that you don’t go to an institution, to seek enhancement, in order to achieve your destiny to prove us theists wrong, at the same time being a theist without realizing it. Meaning self-belief, not just confidence but an all out zeal for one’s belief in one’s self. Otherwise you would have given up long ago, like most atheists do when confronted with the truth.
If none of this made sense I’m sorry, I’m just got woken up by my daughter who got scared, and I was thinking of how to battle you while I was calming her down. SO if it is off queue sorry but please be honest if it is true and has some validity to it.
Look forward to your reply, still praying for you.
P.s. On a funnier side of things, you said to let the insults run because your French, how could I let the insults run to a race that is far superior in insults. Just watched Monty Python search for the Holy Grail and the insults from the French were fabulous. Elderberries, and combat boots, priceless
Ozzi, most animals (including humans) are badly designed. Wikipedia search “argument from poor design” for more information than i can fit here.
Skeet, people are sometimes born with more than 2 arms. Or no arms. Also the number of bones in a fully formed adult can vary by up to 10 bones between adults. Interesting no? Would 10 extra bones count as macro evolution to you?
In reponse to the tornado in a junkyard comment, this is so old it’s irritating. Basically life isn’t randomly generated so a simple probabilty calculation is meaningless. This is one of the basics of evolution theory and natural selection.
and there is nothing wrong with healthy skepticism. However that means that anything is open to skeptical enquiry, including the big questions. Also sometimes, after a decision is made, it doesn’t hurt to go back and prod around to see if anything has changed once in a while.
“You are asserting that something (or someone) DOESN’T exist. Neither of us has a greater burden of proof. But based upon the teleological arguments… I have more evidence of an intelligent creator than you do.”HEY WAIT. I have been saying over and over THAT I AM AN AGNOSTIC why is everyone here trying to prove that in fact an atheist while i m not.So you call me a liar i CANT PROVE god doesnt exist all i was doing was to critic your “proof” with i still dont recognize as so and i argumented against.
“People don’t need to be lectured to, to prove the existance of God. There is enough evidence and argument to get somewhere if they are open to it, but if they aren’t looking for God, they’ll never find Him.” My personal experience teach me that people are actually lectured about god by their parents/churches they dont get the biblic knoledge out of nowhere most people born in a particular religion(all of them) environment tend to be influenced by it first am i wrong?.
“You can’t just go to Church on Sunday, and expect to feel God’s presence in your life. You must seek Him, you must be open to Him.”So you need signs and enough evidence to take them as “god sent” i bet people disagree about the “signs” and about if they are “god sent” nor not.
“. If you never have that Spiritual Experience, no matter how hard you try, you’ll never be able to fully understand Religion and Faith.” there is no need for a good for spirituality buddism and conficianism are spiritualities without gods.
“If you were to ever arrive at an absolute, you simply wouldn’t know what to do! Because you are not open to the truth! You are open to possibility. And if you are so skeptical about everything, I can see no point in placing trust or faith in anyone or anything.” Hey stop calling me an atheist Xavier i m not….and hum there are absolute truths…what u can not deny of experiencing is (at least in the fact you have the truth of an experience whatever the explanation you give it) is absolute for me…so you are wrong at least about me…And you know what i have faith/hope in some people yep but its out of convenience because i cant predict their actions i have been deceived somtimes but out of convenience i put “hope” somtimes that mean i m a limited being too (and i always consider that i can be mistaken)so….hum what was your point again?
“Skepticism will simply destroy your understanding of the world. And followed by skepticism is relativity. Where, in the end, after being so skeptical on the existance of God, you’ll simply say, “Well, it doesn’t really matter.” Skepticism+gaining experiences and reason= more understanding.Relativity uh……i think its just people not thinking the same as you , you can fight that but you will destroy all freedom ,accepting that other disagree with you is hard indeed ,being tolerent should be a catholic virtue am i wrong?
“And collapse into a disordered state where you will never be able to seperate fact from fiction.”…Ah? as in “i bielieve in a book” ?
“that the basis of your reflection is yourself, so all your arguments, and criticisms come from you and you alone.” hmmm actually i was explaning that the start of every reflection is the self conscious of the individual that the start of every reflection we all make come from “I have experienced so and it got me to think that from my perspective”.
“I beg to differ wit that. You see what you don’t quite see, or maybe you do, is that you in your own way view yourself as god.” god? how? I didnt create anything , im not almighty c’mon i think i would notice…
“I’m just saying that you sir have a case of narcissism (well maybe not narcissism, but I don’t know the word for thinking as yourself as a god, I’m sure I know it but it is very late and had a long day and the word just escapes my fragile little mind).” Hm narcissism yeah i am a bit narcissit its like needed to be happy its self satisfaction , but somtimes when i do stupid things (well when i found out that what i ve done wasnt what i wanted) i despise myself so there is nothing absolute about me liking myself or not but yeah i at least dont want to die .But i dont see why that would make me think of myself as a god since i am not omnipotent i m regulary proven wrong and im very limited…i really dont understand what you mean.
“You can not “accept” without validity the existence of a higher being than yourself, let alone worship that being. I can’t prove to you that this higher being does indeed exist, and praise shall be given to that being.” Higher Being?if its in term of intelligence…ive been jalousing geniuses that think faster , sportsmans that run faster…they are better than me in many ways and i have accepted it already so if u prove me that god exists i think i would accept it.
“That isn’t the point of this comment for me to prove to you without any doubts that God does exist. My point is to prove that there is no such thing as an atheist. Believing in oneself, is still believing in something am I not correct?” Of course beilieving in onself is still bieliving…thats not called theism since the subject is not a suprem or “think of itself as supreme” being…that’s..egotism?But not theism dont misuse the words.
“But all the same would you please prove to me that you don’t go to an institution, to seek enhancement, in order to achieve your destiny to prove us theists wrong, at the same time being a theist without realizing it. Meaning self-belief, not just confidence but an all out zeal for one’s belief in one’s self. Otherwise you would have given up long ago, like most atheists do when confronted with the truth.” no im not going to uni to “prove the theist wrong” just because its better to learn about the mechanics to understand them and try to be the more possible close to what actually happen.Why would have i given up when first im not an atheist and second you have yet to prove me the existence of a catholic god ?i plan on staying till discussion is possible.
“P.s. On a funnier side of things, you said to let the insults run because your French, how could I let the insults run to a race that is far superior in insults. Just watched Monty Python search for the Holy Grail and the insults from the French were fabulous. Elderberries, and combat boots, priceless” lol you sir have good tastes in humor.
“You go there looking for answers seeking knowledge that will help you down the path in which you have chosen. Not unlike myself and most theists going to church, synagogue, or other places of worship. Do you not sit down and listen to a teacher, as we do listening to a preacher? Do you not have text books that are full of answers to help you achieve your destiny, like we seek or ultimate destiny? Do these institutions not control others the way of grades, pass or fail? Do not millions attended schools looking for what you have gained? I mean talk about mind control, and such, schools are just places of worship spitting out pantheists in one way or another.” The fact that in school you have the right to disagree with your teachers and most of what you learn is backed with experimental courses (You YOURSELF test the thesis and théories learnt) everything is presented with proof and tests…so it makes most of the things learnt coeherent and those that cant be explained or a just hypothesis stay as such “we dont know” but the only problem i got was with sub nuclear physics i just dont get any of if x_x .
I know quite a few people who are Catholic today who were raised in no particular faith whatsoever.
I apologies if I implied you were an atheist. I was speaking in absolutes myself. I assumed you were an agnostic… but in using absolute terms you felt I was categorizing you. Forgive me… that was not my intent.
The ‘experience’ we speak of does not necessarily mean an emotional experience. It can be something which defies human description. I have had this happen to me when I began to examine Christianity seriously. All I can say is that there are no good words in the English language to describe the realization that God exists, He is personal, He came here to offer a perfect sacrifice for my sins… and that He loves me right now.
Todays Mass readings show us what doubt leads us to:
http://www.ewtn.com/vbible/search.asp?abbr=Mark&ch=6&bv1=17&ev1=29
Herod had doubts. He liked to listen to John preach… he was fascinated by him… but in the end… he had John’s head cut off as the result of a promise he made during a drunken party he was having. John’s crime was the fact that he reminded Herod that it was wrong for Herod to take Herod’s brother’s wife.
Without God, every man is capable of being driven to Herod’s excesses and murder! I include myself in this assertion.
If God does not exist then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law, then there is no such thing as “good” or “evil”.
As for this mystery of Love, the humanists and doubters have difficulty with it.
God exists IN His universe… but he always existed also outside of space and time. God existed before even the first atom or subatomic particle was created by Him.
Today, the more we know about the atom… the more we begin to realize that much of the Christian mystery about God is absolutely possible. A century or two ago, when all we knew was Newtonian physics, Calculus, basic Chemistry & basic Biology… man had an excuse to be skeptical. But even Darwin had to confess when he was near death (and I quote) “the phrenology of the human eye gives me the cold shudders”. He was saying that there was nothing in phrenology which could compare to the human eye and the visiosensory and visiopsychic cortex of man. Those who study human sight today have to agree with this assertion of doubt in pure evolution even more so than when Darwin first said it. We have much more sophisticated intruments with which we can see the dramatic difference between even the most advanced primates and us.
God will only allow the gentle proof of nature and the universe to attest to His beneficence and love for man. God thought of each and every person He has created or ever will create before He ever created even the first angel or heaven itself. And though He permits the occasional miracle to occur, He knows than man soon forgets those miracles, and so He is content to show himself to us in prayer and in reality most of the time. God will not force His existence upon us because to do so would generally violate free will (which he chooses to hold sacrosanct). It is precisely for this reason that God accepts invitations (even poorly written ones) in the form of prayer, petitions, sacrifice.
St. Thomas’ telelogical proofs are perhaps the best reason to go on searching God out. The tornadoe in a junkyard analogy may be old… but it’s age does not eviscerate it’s veracity!
You can also judge by the fruits. The most brutal regimes in history were those based upon a city without God. And while religious societies based upon Christianity are not perfect… they historically have contributed more to civilization than any other theological/philosophical foundation.
A final note: Those who work on the very advanced fringes of science and mathematics today will tell you that not every assertion used in the process of science is based upon that which is provable. In fact there are common principles which man uses every day… but is incapable of actually ever seeing them first hand. This includes electromagnetism, gravity, the force that holds an electron in it’s valience orbit, light (one of the most amazing things man has to play with)… and radio energy. We can drop something in the path of any of these things and watch how they behave… but we can not actually take any of them apart and examine their components clearly (without altering the components in the process). The matter becomes more an assertion of the hidden things in the universe when we get into the field of sub particle physics. The more things we answer with science, the more questions we have. It’s a beautiful paradox… that the more man unravels the universe… the more proof that there is a designer who is anything but random statistical chance.
When Jesus performed His many miracles… there were thousands of witnesses (not hundreds). If you and I were to witness a miracle today… because we are frail humans… we would begin to doubt what we saw within say ten or fifteen years. That is how we are. We always doubt God. It is precisely that doubt which He wishes us to challenge.
As I said earlier… reason is VERY important… but reason alone is insufficient. What is even more important is a humble heart… a heat of Love which explores with an open mind. At some point, if that heart is asking to see God… that heart and mind will be given enough evidence. But it happens in God’s time… not ours. In the mean time… a very good starting place to pray from is the 10 Commandments. I call them the 10 Laws of Love. I highly recommend them to begin unfolding the mystery that awaits every man and woman who is looking for God.
After that, the 4 Gospels of the New testament are of exceedingly great value. But remember,the bible is the inspired Word of God given to us by two Catholic Councils. Just as Shakespeare would be the most authoritative human interpreter of all of his own works, so to the Catholic Church is the most authentic human interpreter of the books she bound together and gave us. Though mere men wrote the texts… we know they were inspired by God… and we know that when St. Jerome bound those books together in the canon of scripture for us and called them ‘biblios’ that that action was safeguarded by the same Holy Spirit.
Perhaps all of that is too much to expect you to believe… nevertheless read the gospels with an open mind… and then come back to the blog. Read Luke first… he’s my favorite.
Try and get a good Catholic translation.
Ave Maria
llzO,
Not sure where I’m going with this but I hope you enjoy.
If you haven’t already guessed, I’m not one that is a big supporter of schools, or institutes of higher learning. I’m not saying that they are not necessary, especial at higher levels of academia, I saying that I view them in the same way you view the Catholic Church. I assume (I do a lot of that, and for this I apologize) that you view the Church as somewhat of a prison, or better yet a concentration camp of sorts, where droves of people are gathered up by this all mysterious “fear”. The idea that this fear is indoctrinated into us at a very young age does have some validity to it. The word “fear” however has been misconstrued over the years by those that do not understand the meaning of fear in the biblical sense, as opposed to the worldly sense.
The Encarta dictionary has 4 meanings of the word fear, we will examine two of them, the first being the worldly view, second being the biblical view.
Definition #1 (worldly) an unpleasant feeling of anxiety or apprehension caused by the presence or anticipation of danger
Fear in this sense does suggest some kind of mind manipulation, to prey on the emotions and faults of the unsuspecting general public. (Btw you know what makes the general public the general public I suggest you read The Underground History of American Education) This fear is often portrayed as the fear in which we are viewed to have towards God. This fear the fear that is more times than not shown to us through the media like news papers, television, movies to be the fear that we Catholics have therefore people who don’t do research have reason to believe that we are like the Borg , resistance is futile kind of stuff. I’m not saying that there are not people who are practicing Catholics who don’t have this fear, due to either their own lack of faith, reason and or judgment. Or they are “Catholic” and do see this fear, then do one of two things leave the church, or go on submitting to their own misconceptions without looking further into this arena. Do you follow me? This is the fear of the ones who buy into the lie, either by their own fault or by mainstream western civilization telling them this is the fear that they should have, and like an ant the continue marching along to the beat of a drum. To clarify I’m not saying that all Catholics are like this, just the ones that allow themselves to be like this, or to be made out like this. This Fear is not the fear that we should have, nor do we have when it comes down to the act of fearing God. This is the most prevalent definition though, all be it untrue in regards to the faith.
We do as Catholics fear (yes in this sense) the loss of our souls to the devil, and eternal damnation. I have seen, heard, and experienced, things not of this world but of the devils that your books might not be able to explain, but I assure you that he does exist, please don’t ask me to explain for I can not nor do I wish to, let’s just leave it at that. This is a MAJOR reason why I have not left the faith instead have become more involved in it. Even though I can say that I was raised in this definition of “fear”, from a young age, then when I hit the age of reason, I looked into the biblical meaning of fear.
Definition #2 (biblical) reverence, respect or awe for somebody or something.
This fear is the true meaning of fear when we say we have the “fear” of God. It is out of respect, love, and adoration that we have for Our Lord, and Our Lady. It isn’t anything to be “afraid” of, it is like having a healthy level of respect towards your father, mother, teacher, or the law. You fear these things not out of sheer terror like your going to loose you life in some kind of horrific way, but a fear of loosing the respect, love, and generosity that these people show you. It is a general rule that if you cross anyone that you admire, or respect that in your crossness you have lost that respect in which they have shown you. So the healthy fear of God isn’t out of mind control, it is out of free will. We choose to fear God, always remembering to be respectful to Him, in everything that we do. In daily interactions with others show common courtesy towards them, knowing that even if they don’t choose to return the favor your still pleasing God, because you’re the one who was courteous. Not swearing, drinking (over indulgence), looking at immodesty, or gossiping all these things can make you a better individual not only in society’s eyes, but more importantly Gods. It is this fear out of reverence, and respect that we are called to have. Not to do anything that will condemn us to hell, or loose the grace that God has bestowed upon us. It is our own free will that allows us to do this, to have this healthy fear. It is our own free will that allows us to know love and serve God without any hesitation, not mind altering fear as you may have your opinion about.
I hope that this isn’t too of track for our general conversation about theism, and atheism. I am going somewhere with it. I hope to take you along for the ride.
P.s. Thanks for the complement on Monty Python, I think that their humor was and is brilliant, it really has no equals. I also enjoy Star Trek (TNG mostly), and the 4,5,6, episodes of Star Wars. You can’t forget the LOTR either. I worked at blockbuster for 5 years saw a lot of good movies, saw a lot of bad movies, I’m not yet decided if I have a “best movie ever”, I will decide that on my death bed, it is pure arrogance to say that this one movie that you saw was the best ever without doing research into other movies. I am also a HUGE Die Hard fan all of them were good, although I will say the last two wee a bit much, but nevertheless always enjoyable:)
“I know quite a few people who are Catholic today who were raised in no particular faith whatsoever. ” what i meant is that u cant be catholic without having been told about it making conversion/belief a cultural process.
“The ‘experience’ we speak of does not necessarily mean an emotional experience. It can be something which defies human description. I have had this happen to me when I began to examine Christianity seriously. All I can say is that there are no good words in the English language to describe the realization that God exists, He is personal, He came here to offer a perfect sacrifice for my sins… and that He loves me right now.” They call personnal proof of gods existance “Révélation” and its personal so cant be understood by others ,the rest of the sentence is you preaching…not argumenting.
“Without God, every man is capable of being driven to Herod’s excesses and murder! I include myself in this assertion.
If God does not exist then there is no moral law. If there is no moral law, then there is no such thing as “good” or “evil”.
As for this mystery of Love, the humanists and doubters have difficulty with it.” ah…so you didnt hear me when is said that many athéist religions (with no god but with bielief on life and deatts like buddhism) have morals , even those with animic bielief had morals ,you persisting in not seeing that catholic church didnt invent morals is amazing me , atheist got morals too i know many atheists with moral the very fact is that morals are simply “reasonable” but you know what our moral certainly differs on many points , morals are simply rules we respect to keep our societies alive and the most of us happy.I think that the pope asking not to use condom in sexual act is amoral.I think that priest hiding a ww2 war crime criminal so he cant be judged by france justice is amoral, in official history we see many occurence in what you called a perfeclty moral church and bielievers , like slavery ,ethnic epuration…cultural epuration , burning poeple suspected of witchcraft etc that proves that he christianized occidental society is from far void of what i call amorality…and yeah from france view the nazis were ultra catholics and france’s church mostly cooperated with the vichy government , and after the war many joined ultra catholic assiociations….so i doubt that culturally the bible gives enough of what i call “morals”.
“You can also judge by the fruits. The most brutal regimes in history were those based upon a city without God. And while religious societies based upon Christianity are not perfect… they historically have contributed more to civilization than any other theological/philosophical foundation.” The most brutal and that existed for longer , were societies based upon gods centuries of slavery in monarchies (the emperor/kings were god sents or gods as the christ).Atheist or atheist wannabe as relativly new and have made less that all supreme monarchies have done , and you know what my countries works on an atheist or at least agnostic system Church and Politics are separated and it works FINE thats the basis of all modern democratic liberal societies well yours tend to elect only catholic and have reference to god but do not work on the 10 commandments but a FAR MORE elaborated syteme of laws made for “the sake of all”.
“As for this mystery of Love, the humanists and doubters have difficulty with it.” Dofficulties? which difficulty?Love is a pulsion (conditioned by some triggers~) which mystery is love supposed to be?
“God exists IN His universe… but he always existed also outside of space and time. God existed before even the first atom or subatomic particle was created by Him.” stating not proof
“Today, the more we know about the atom… the more we begin to realize that much of the Christian mystery about God is absolutely possible.”How so?
“A century or two ago, when all we knew was Newtonian physics, Calculus, basic Chemistry & basic Biology… man had an excuse to be skeptical. But even Darwin had to confess when he was near death (and I quote) “the phrenology of the human eye gives me the cold shudders”.He was saying that there was nothing in phrenology which could compare to the human eye and the visiosensory and visiopsychic cortex of man.”
Evolution from a simple to a more complex type of eye of drosophilia eyes (with is more complicated than ours) have been made in experiments so he was wrong if he said this.
“Those who study human sight today have to agree with this assertion of doubt in pure evolution even more so than when Darwin first said it. We have much more sophisticated intruments with which we can see the dramatic difference between even the most advanced primates and us.” the comment before proves that false you should look for those experiments on the web too.And if you wanted to explain that scientist cant explain everything….they are the first to say so as i already said science is showing us mechanics that are not noticeable at first its reducing the scales of systems to see the most possible small mechanic seen as this science DOESNT explain but Reduce the SCALES and show us exactly WHAT did WHAT the mechanics themselves are not explained but are “VERIDIC” as in “we cant deny them of existing” and “god” is not proven by that.The Hidden god should be PROVED to exist in a experience where we cant DENY that an HIDDEN CATHOLIC GOD did it we have yet to have that.Yeah we are different from primates even if we can easily notice the things that are alike ,like the dna or simply our general phenotype so we are not SO different afterall (if u say wa are drastically completely different …its delusional).
“As I said earlier… reason is VERY important… but reason alone is insufficient. What is even more important is a humble heart… a heat of Love which explores with an open mind.” Why love?Love is not “logical” imo its not a good way to scale things with….”humble” as in “aware of you limits”? i think i am or at least try to be so i think im okay.And again the church the vatican did many bad things imo.
“Perhaps all of that is too much to expect you to believe… nevertheless read the gospels with an open mind… and then come back to the blog. Read Luke first… he’s my favorite.
Try and get a good Catholic translation.” hey ive been to church and catholic studies too so im pretty aware of most of things said in the old and new testament already.
“llzO,
Not sure where I’m going with this but I hope you enjoy.
If you haven’t already guessed, I’m not one that is a big supporter of schools, or institutes of higher learning. I’m not saying that they are not necessary, especial at higher levels of academia, I saying that I view them in the same way you view the Catholic Church. I assume (I do a lot of that, and for this I apologize) that you view the Church as somewhat of a prison, or better yet a concentration camp of sorts, where droves of people are gathered up by this all mysterious “fear”. The idea that this fear is indoctrinated into us at a very young age does have some validity to it. The word “fear” however has been misconstrued over the years by those that do not understand the meaning of fear in the biblical sense, as opposed to the worldly sense.” I never stated church as prison or concentration camp where did you took this?o_O i wish you not to speak on my behalf the more when u say things i didnt , thats a manipulation trick i hate. Fear…the word should have existed before the bible we could do some etymology of the word yeah .
“We do as Catholics fear (yes in this sense) the loss of our souls to the devil, and eternal damnation.” that was all i needed to know i didnt fear god while i was bieliver but i was scared to be sent in hell because i did somthing wrong…wich in fact results in having fear of god since he is the one deciding so when you are afraid of going to hell because of your “catholic sins” you worship god and pray for redemption (the religion ALWAYS give a way to get it) , those for fear not are those who didnt do any catholic sins or those who think they worship enough already to be excused from hell.And most of the time when you respect someone of light you also fear him a bit (at least when he is the one to judge you or have power on you).
“It is our own free will that allows us to know love and serve God without any hesitation, not mind altering fear as you may have your opinion about.” I never said that all bielivers were scared only people but i know that the sytem exist in the church , you bielieve because first you want to , and because you ve experienced things you consider to be revelations from god and that i respect even if i cant understand.
“I hope that this isn’t too of track for our general conversation about theism, and atheism. I am going somewhere with it. I hope to take you along for the ride.” No its perfectly into the conversation imo.
ps: xD wow youve i wish i’d worked at blockbuster too ,i love diehard too but i didnt see the last one :<
Oh for those who want a peek at not catholic morals of a religion with no god here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
llzO,
I apologize for putting words in your mouth, without directly asking you. Please forgive me. I told you I make rash assumtions, and we all know what assuming does. So let me ask you how do you view the Catholic Church?
And are you a relativist (if is mispelt the word I’m sorry) meaning are you a person who believes that it works for someone than that is great for that person but it doesn’t work for you. I just want to know where your coming from aside from the hallowed halls of academia.
got ot go the family calls will be back later on 2nite or tomarrow.
Its okay since you apologized and bearing a grudge would be stupid .
I see the catholic church as one of the most powerfull organisations of our planet and our (at least known) history (with some other religions) the foundatory books contains many moral , spiritual aspects and are very interesting (story wise) its epic , the church (as an organised pack of human) take its moral and laws from the books , and in official history its stated that new testament was rewriten and discussed amongst the top leaders of the church , official history show a positive and a negative influence of the churches (actually i bielieve that the power isnt really centralized even if the pope is the chief of all the church) depending of the country and the situations…from the rather agressive converstion trough the execution of eretics , the crusade to the organised help of the poors…its hard to bring a coherent and unanimate conclusion of the overall influence of the church people saying to have the same faith didnt act the same…so i like tolerant churches and i am scared of the integrists.I think religion should stay as a private matter and politics must be “laic” (as in france) with no particular reference to a religion.
I am not a relativist…i dont think i have ever spoke with someone that say to be…i think that the relativity idea is just the very fact that 1st people think differently 2nd people dont always understand each other even when trying.So i am not agree with you i bielieve in what i say so do you but “no conclusive enough” truth have been found so we can have the same conclusion about the situation.Knowing that peoples morals/cultures/philosophies are different depending of their environment and/or régional history makes peoples mind UNDIENIABLY (i dont know if that word exists) different.But that does not mean that the one stating it have no bielief but just admits other think differently (them being wrong or right to yourself not mattering …sometimes you cant tell or have to accept the differences).
Hem as for myself im a 22 years old french guy ex catholic , now agnostic ,catholic middle class parents .My hobbies are….discussions , observations…, music(all sort of music),movies, and animation series.
I was raised Catholic; went to mass every Sunday; went to Jesuit high school where I went to mass every Wednesday morning and prayer service every other morning; had religion and “philosophy and literature” classes each of my 4 years; but I no longer practice, nor do my parents who took us to church every Sunday.
There are so many reasons why, but I’ll just give a small one. In one of the first posts I see above, someone says that they think there is a special place in hell for Bill Maher. Why would a Catholic be so vengeful like this? Would the Catholics on this blog wish to have a special place in hell for that Catholic priest who refused to Confirm my little sister simply because she wouldn’t give money to the weekly collection, never mind the fact that our parents didn’t have much money but did take us to mass every Sunday outside of our parish to a poor, black parish (we’re white) and gave money there?
Would those Catholics on this site also think, in fact, wish that there was a special place in hell for that same priest, who later was discovered to be a pedophile?
I don’t know if there is a God or not, but if there is one, I don’t believe he is vengeful (and someone above said he is not); I don’t believe he hates, and there seems to be an awful lot of hate from some Catholics (e.g., Bill Donahue) against people who make fun of Catholics (and religion in general.) I would understand it better if Catholics would say they forgive people like Bill Maher and pray for him, if they really disagree, but the Catholicism I was taught told me I should forgive these people and treat them like I would like to be treated myself. If I were to believe in a heaven and a hell, I wouldn’t wish a special place for even the likes of Bill Donahue.
Oy. You got ME involved. Game over Denjudge.
First – Find me where in the post it says that there is a special place in hell for Bill Maher.
Second – Not giving money to a collection is NOT why your little sister wasn’t confirmed. If ANYTHING it was because you do not practice, did not, and probably will not. Not only that, *chuckles* Priests CAN’T CONFIRM PEOPLE! We do pray for people like Bill Maher. We do forgive people like Bill Maher. We love the sinner, but hate the sin.
No REAL Catholic leaves the faith forever. And besides: If you are so “forgiving” why don’t you forgive the priest that wouldn’t (because he couldn’t) confirm you little sister.
Cheerio Mates!
~Colin
And I know that you will say that Skeet King of All said it…All he’s saying is that Satan has a special place IF he goes to Hell.
Thank you Signa Veriae,
I was not going to pay much attention to Denjudge, because I’m involved with llzO, and I did not find Denjudge’s response, worth responding to. A lot of white noise if ou will. I took only 197 coments to get to the peophile aspect of teh catholic church. Like there are only pedophiles in the Catholic Church, and no where else. Not that this “priest” isn’t deserving of the full ramafications of the law, but this blog is about belief in teh existance of God, not if priests are pedophiles.
llzO, I’ll be back tomarrow going to watch the office now, and as usuall think about how to respond to your response. If you want something to chew on cause your bored, what do you think of Our Lady, and her being teh immaculate conception?
…Or buhdha’s levitation , mohamed’s revelations, Zeus transformations , Shiva’s eight hands?
Simple you can bielieve if you want to but cant expect others to bielieve just because it stated somewhere…plus the truth we have observed on the matters (im speaking for most of the cited exemples) do not match with whats being told…but do not prove them “wrong” since we dont know , but to “know” something you need to “experience it for yourself” , or enough proof to ,for all the exemples both are not fullfiled.
Ok lets do something interisting , can i ask beiliever to tell me what is god for them ?(how he does things why ,what his tought could be etc etc.)
well basically God* is our creator, He made us and keeps us living. he didn’t need to create us but e He did out o love. plus he showed us how we should be living and snt his son to save us from eternal damnation.
Oh llzO my der friend it is over, you have opened a new chapeter to this disucssion. I will let you know more when I get a chance to fully pay the utmost attention to such a serious subject matter. So until then later my french advesary.
Ps. at age 22 i was not french, nor agnostic, but i wasn’t the best catholic either. My wife brought ne back into the church, and now I have 4 kids in as many years of marriage. All with Gods grace and love.
P.P.S. Blockbuster was cool, but after you seen one movie you pretty much seen them all. I enjoyed teh independant flics more so then the mainstream ones. Afte I got married a funny thing happened I was teh guy to come to for “family” friendly movies. SO I took up the torch and watched movies that were family friendly. Neat how God places things before you without you even realizing they were placed before you:)
Why is there so much conflict over the correct interpretation of God’s word?
If God created the law and is responsible for the content in the Bible, then he’s also responsible for creating the laws of nature, which are designed so that no transgressions are possible. Sometimes science can figure out ways around such laws to create airplanes and such, but the essential natural law remains unviolated. In the case of the airplane, the engines are designed to counteract the pull of gravity. But gravity never disappears. Just turn off the engines and see what happens! A hydrogen atom will never be heavier than lead, for example. The sun always rises in the east and sets in the west, never the other way around, etc.
Now my point. If God has the ability to be so unambiguous as to laying out the laws of nature, laws that require no faith whatsoever, and are in fact completely independent of faith, why would God choose to be so ambiguous and rely on such an easily corruptable human psychological condition like faith when it comes to his “word”?
Some may say that the answers are there in the Bible for all to see, and this may be the case. But why would he allow so much discrepency and conflict (often violent) when it comes to trying to interpret it correctly? Why would God choose to make faith so important, and to be the only way to have access to him when the natural laws he made don’t require it at all?
Booska just pointed out catholic’s god (this is an hypothesis you already know where i stand on this matter..) unexplainable behavior…
ok that is very simple to explain. When God made his word, he made it not so we could debate and interpret it. he created it on the basis that we would understand it and accept it because it came rom Him. plus he also had to test our faith. those that do not accept His word, because it came frm Him would be saved, but those who rejected it and debate it over and over, would be condemned. so you could say that his word was simple a test of our faith. it isn’t a mistake on his part or a fault of His, but simple his own way of “seperating the sheep from the wolves.”
“ok that is very simple to explain. When God made his word, he made it not so we could debate and interpret it. he created it on the basis that we would understand it and accept it because it came rom Him. plus he also had to test our faith. those that do not accept His word, because it came frm Him would be saved, but those who rejected it and debate it over and over, would be condemned. so you could say that his word was simple a test of our faith. it isn’t a mistake on his part or a fault of His, but simple his own way of “seperating the sheep from the wolves.”” Why does he needed to make wolves in the first place….he is omnicient why does he need to seperate when he already made and know who are the sheeps and the wolves , that’s unexplainable ….your god like to toy.
Everything was created by him so he his responsible of everything.
“I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own — a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.”
Albert Einstein
People. Get over your childish fears. We are going to all die. There is no heaven and there is no hell. These are *man* made inventions. A look at all the religions *invented* by man are quite clear evidence of this.
Knight Errant :
Reading your post on Pascal’s wager shows how shallow some thinking is. What you are saying, is that’s is best to hedge ones bet. To believe just in case.
What does that say of your God? That he would prefer a person who was hedging their bet? Or one that honestly said, “given the evidence I could not believe”.
What Pascal shallowly suggests is ‘fake’ belief to win everlasting life over honesty. What does this say?
Wow, seriously. What is wrong with this religion. You brainwash your own children like nazis, to the point where they cant think, and decide for them selfs. I’m in 9th grade and I am so grateful my parents, who were brought up religious, were unselfish and respectful enough to allow me to think for and believe in whatever I wanted. My friends parents on the other hand, did not allow their child to think for himself, and he is now scared into christianity. Now this guy, Bill Maher, is making a documentary on how ridiculous religion is. And of course the church calls it stupid, and makes overly biased negative opinions about the movie, such as in the description above when it says how the movie compares believing in santa and god. I laughed when I read that, cause I knew it went nothing like that, but the church uses it to call the movie stupid and ignorant. But honestly, in the movie, Bill Maher agrees with a christian that its ridiculous how santa can visit every home in one night, but then Bill says ‘Now one man listening to everyone murmur at him at once, that I understand’. But I cannot wait to see this movie, I would love if my friend could come, but most likely, his parents wont let him.
all religion is made up, and has had only a negative impact on the world
truth says,
Let’s see negative impact?
We Catholic’s built the first hospitals for one thing.
You atheist have made hospitals into a
business for profit. Put that in your pipe and
smoke it.
Jacob,
“brainwash your own children like nazis” The nazis got their ideas from the Marxiest who had
no morals and hated anything to do with Jesus Christ. As I can tell from your comment you
sound like a Marxist and you probably don’t even know it. The Marxist hate religion. And do not allow free though. Your in the 9th grade have you every read a book. Most children your age if they go to public school never read. Have your parents ever read a book. I’ll bet all they do is listen to rock and roll! I could
go on and on and on.
It seems there is some misunderstanding here about atheists. The atheist does not categorically deny the possible existence of a god or gods – in the same way that an atheist does not categorically deny the possible existence of invisible elves. Either of these could theoretically exist, but since there is no credible evidence for the existence of either, the atheist operates as if they do not exist. The Catholic has little problem being an atheist in terms of other gods – the atheist simply takes it one god further. There really shouldn’t even be a word called “atheist”. We don’t have a word for people who do not believe in invisible elves. What would a non believer in elves be – an “aelvist”? We are all essentially born atheists – then someone fills our head with ideas about a particular theistic god, which is a reason the majority of children grow up to believe in the god of their parents. Religion in particular works though this childhood indoctrination. As an atheist, I try and protect my children from this religious indoctrination, by helping them acquire sound reasoning skills. As adults, they may choose to become part of a religion or not, but it will be up to them as they apply reasoning skills and examine the evidence.
wow i swear to many people are too involved in this movie. I catholic and even i like this guy and his comedy. I think many peopl for get God has a sense of humor and you should repect this man’s opinions. That the american way. If you dont then go to some 3rd world country where freedom of speech and press dont exist and live in your as quated from this forum “Mysterious Bible”. This world isnt for people would only worry about after death worry about the now. that is all…….Go Bears!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will Bill’s production be around in another 2000 years? He can cherry pick the fringe parts of Christianity and call them what he wants.
Christianity, based in love — or this film, based on a lie:
“On how he got people to talk to him [Maher]: “It was simple: We never, ever, used my name. We never told anybody it was me who was going to do the interviews. We even had a fake title for the film. We called it ‘A Spiritual Journey.’
i have no problems with this movie… i have no problems with religious people or atheist. but i do have a problem with people trying to ruin others happiness. if someone is happy with being a theist, by all means let them be, don’t just go around in random areas where they can find criticism of their religion (a catholic blog). and that is the same with atheist, if they are atheist then don’t go up to them and try to convert them, it’s pathetic.
i like to take my first sentence back. after seeing the trailer i realized that bill can either be racist or just ignorant. probably ignorant. he thinks that islam is a religion of evil yet he probably hasn’t met an islamic person or at least read a book about it. i got to go to saudi arabia and they don’t hate america, just american foreign policy and even then it is only a small percentage of them that are violent.
people who say that atheists are smarter then theists because they don’t believe in god or other stupid reasons should just shut up. and theists who say that atheists are going to go to hell because they aren’t theists should also shut up.
i’m going to leave with a quote
“Basically … out of all the ridiculous religion stories—which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous—the silliest one I’ve ever heard is, ‘Yeah … there’s this big giant universe and it’s expanding, it’s all gonna collapse on itself and we’re all just here just cause … just cause.’ That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever” trey parker (south park creator)
you people are barking mad. religion is a means of controling you. because if you really knew that this existance was all you get then you would probably rise up against your bosses and government. but because you think that there is a better world after this one, then you can accept the overwhelming amount of BS that we all have to deal with. it is a comfort to beLIEve, it is reassuring to beLIEve, you grew up beLIEving, it is hard to let go of beLIEf. once you let go of the lie in beLIEf, then life becomes much more valuable, and every moment is your greatest achievement, and people are more precious, and war is unthinkable. Please let it go and live a life worth living.
It is impossible to express how happy I am that I do not live in the crazy religious society that is the US. Or how happy I am that my country does not have regressive zealots like McCain and Palin.
I don’t advise you to tell people not to watch a documentary that you, yourself have not seen. Ignorance is the root of all immorality
/agnostic
//and not the fluffy kind
///I don’t know and you don’t either ;0
Ignorance is indeed the root of all immorality. Which is where the Church has come in to help man. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was the teacher of the people, setting up the Universities and Monastaries which educated the peoples in science, philosophy, and language.
“So, in other words, its (sic) not a good movie.” -That you haven’t even seen yet. And his site? Foul language, blasphemy-oh no! Freedom of speech and of thought.
I don’t always agree with Maher but he makes a lot of good points, the main one being – Religion can be dangerous. I feel it can do very good things or very bad. Too often the bad things are focused on, but the bad things DO exist. Like being anti-gay, for one. We’re all humans and let’s act like it. Christ was a great man, and I’m pretty sure he would’ve been cool with everyone, even homosexuals.
there is no god
Religion is answers that cannot be questioned. What is the point is just believing without questioning? Don’t you have any curiosity about the world you are living in now? Forget about some imaginary world you may or may not encounter later. Make this life count. Use your brain. If god existed, he would want you to use the brain he gave. Seek the truth (somewhere besides the bible.) If god created the world, then didn’t he create all the books in it? Read one besides the bible sometime. Please. And please stop brainwashing your children.
alex: You’re right, there is no god. The problem is: The believers don’t know that and will never even consider the possibility. They fear the void. They have the (false) security of a meaning of life. Who are we to take that away?
Still, to all the believers reading these comments: Please accept that from *ANY* other religion’s point of view, *your* religion’s stories sound ridiculous. And that’s what the movie is about.
“Ignorance is indeed the root of all immorality. Which is where the Church has come in to help man. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was the teacher of the people, setting up the Universities and Monastaries which educated the peoples in science, philosophy, and language.”
Really. And how many died at the hands of Religion in this period or were jailed for their thoughts on how the planets actually orbited the Sun. Religion is a science stopper (Just look at the ID debates today).
Good thing the Vatican just rejected ID:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804713.htm
This was a step in the right direction.
If you want to argue, (perhaps no neccessairily to “prove” anything. Because that, in itself, creates a “moral dilemma.” Trying insistently to prove your own beliefs for that sake of– yourself! In Christian moral valuation, is not that “selfishness?!” At end, wishing to prove something and quell all doubt about something that is so doubtful in itself!? O you fools!!Open your eyes, and see! What hypocrisy lies in the very principle of faith itself! Indefinieley following the “truth’s” sake of the argument simply because what is “false” assumingly opposes it! Is not that a blatant metaphysical prejudice on YOUR part?! And your “God” (namely this being, degerated into a “thing-in-itself”) created into devoid of any subjectivity and made the very contadiction to nature ( reality!) itself!? One may assume a casuality to this short paragraph, it will probably be to destroy Christianity. No–mankind—I wish not to destroy anything, merely to show you your errors, and let them pass–as the snake sheds it’s skin, and the tree falls from the leaf…. Have I been heard?
Yes. a funnny quote detailsmatter!
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Philosophy is question that may never be answered.
Thus we have the fraud and paradox of the theologian.
By the way,
HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN. SO STOP
REFFERING TO HIM AS AN ATHEIST.
FABRICATION IS A SIGN OF UTTER
DESPERATION AND TERROR.
I would say read the Bible in it’s entirety, and decide for yourself based what you learn. Until then, you cannot make claims you are not fully informed about.
Religion is not for the weak minded, nor does it keep one from fully enjoying life’s pleasures. It has been proven that prayer/meditation/belief in a higher being has amazing benefits on human health. My faith gives richness and fullness to my life. I do not have faith out of fear. I have faith out of love.
As for the gravity statement, Gravity is real and proven. However, they do not understand gravity in it’s entirety. For example, gravity related to black holes is quite a mystery currently. You might find this experiment interesting. They are trying to replicate the instant after the “big bang”. http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
Regarding the statement about evolution, I suggest you read up on the theories of evolution. Evolution is real and it is proven, but it has not been proven to the point that science can say without a doubt that we evolved from single celled organisms into intelligent life. The fossil record simply has not been found to date to support this claim. Check out these readings: Evolutionary Analysis by Freeman/Herron, The origin of species by means of natural selection, or the preservation of favoured
races in the struggle for life, by Darwin., The Beak of the Finch, by Weiner. It is not wise to make claims without being fully informed.
Name calling and arguing is accomplishing nothing on this blog. Read, investigate, learn, and let people be people. We are here to make the most out of life, and to try to live in harmony. I choose to be a Christian, and it is okay if you do not. However, it is quite unfounded to call me ignorant or fearful for choosing to live my life by faith in Jesus Christ.
Concerned Citizen Says,
“HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN” I saw it on T.V. it’s TRUE. This guy did years of research!
ok, here’s a logical argument for you guys, that say Bill isn’t doing enough research and such:
everyone here agrees that God pure good, omnipotent, and all wise, correct?
well, look at human suffering in the world, say starving kids in africa.
if god is pure good, how can he let innocent children starve? well, let’s say he can’t do anything about it, so he’s still pure good.
well, if he can’t do anything about it, is he omnipotent? no, he’s not. “but what if he doesn’t know about it?”
well, if he doesn’t know about it, he is not all wise.
so there you go, explain that one away.
AB, this is a pretty stupid argument if you can evil call that one. Anyone who is familiar with Scripture will understand these things by a brief glance at Genesis. After the Fall of Man, God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden. Genesis 3:16-20:
Man chose to go against God by sinning and partaking of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil., As a punishment, man had to suffer death, hardship, and struggles. So your argument against God contradicting Himself goes out the window. God is Omnipotent, and He has bestowed us with the gift of Free Will. We decide for ourselves our own paths. It is something incontemplateable.
Some of you say you’ll pray that the movie doesn’t air or bombs, but that praying for Bill to be struck with lightening is some sort of disgusting misconception of your beliefs… how so? You are praying for the demise or downfall of another in either case. So either your prayer was ridiculous or they both would be (I’ll go with the second).
As far as the movie goes, I do hope he interviews some of those that you would consider more educated in the church; however, the person writing the article feeds right into what the actual premise of the movie is targeting… the “average uneducated, catechized person.” If the average religious person is considered crazy or uneducated (even by those of you that believe) then you already understand what the rest of us see looking from the outside. Crazy, uneducated believers trying to force their beliefs onto everyone else.
That’s Religulous!
This thread is proof that a God doesn’t exist, just listen to each of you bicker about who’s right and who’s wrong.
It plays out like this.
Person 1: “No, my interpretation is correct.”
Person 2: “No it’s not, it’s wrong.”
person 1: “No, you’re wrong.”
Person 2: “No, you are.”
and so on…
The mere fact that their isn’t an exact interpretation in which everyone can perceive to be true without question, is proof that each of your religious beliefs aren’t from the divine, but only the result of where you happen to be born and created by the hand of primitive men.
I’m really sorry that all of you are bickering back and forth wasting the only life you have because you think you get another one after you die.
Religilous!
You’re all nuts! Up with Mahar! Down with your God!
Darwin speaks the truth not the talking head in the pulpit!
I suggest people stop forcing their views upon each other. It is just a waste of time because no body is convincing anybody, especially over the internet.
Although such debates prove interesting, i think trying to out wit each other is a waste of carbon because it is obvious that both sides are
1.Convinced of their argument
2.Very intelligent
3.Have circumstantial proof that really isn’t proof at all
As long as all people respect others rights and dignity and are treated fairly, everything will be at harmony, with or without God.
Those who believe have the 10 commandments, the teachings of Christ, the writings of Muhammad, ect…
As for atheists, I suggest you take some advice from Bill & Ted’s excellent adventure (the cheesy movie about the 2 airheads who go back in time with Keanu Reeves)
1. Be excellent to each other
2. Party on, dudes
Master Paul Xavier,
if god is as spiteful as portrayed in you little quote, then he, again, isn’t pure good, is he?
as humans, we idolize forgiveness and compassion. however, seeing as how we were modeled after god, according to the bible, what we idolize should be embodied by the perfect entity, right?
so, if god is spiteful and unforgiving, as you have just shown, again, he is not pure good.
furthermore, you are saying that god punishes all humans, no matter how good they are, for the actions done by the first humans (who, by the way, the theory of evolution pretty much proves never existed), which is even more spiteful and unforgiving than simply taking revenge on humans for their own actions.
you have only proven my point further.
I started to read your review of the film, Religilous, but could not continue beyond the first sentence. The reason: your struggle to write coherent, syntactically correct sentences. I suggest you work on your writing skills before you try and use the medium to convey your opinions.
Please disregard this criticism if you are younger than a 7th grader. If that is the case, then I commend you for writing, but urge you to read a variety of styles in order to effectively communicate. Two authors come to mind: E. B. White and Hunter S. Thompson.
Peace,
Ben
Master Paul Xavier Says:
Friday, June 20, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Steve,
Many people are raised Catholic, but it doesn’t mean they live it to it’s fullest. Karl Marx was actually a Christian himself, before he turned around and went into Satanism.
Wow. This is almost as bad as the drivel about Obama’s religious affiliation. Even if Mr. Obama was Muslim, who cares? Here, the good gentleman assigns Christianity to Marx’s dossier, in spite of the fact that he was Jewish.
If you’re going to send him to hell, be sure to get him there quicker. We Jews don’t like to putz around.
AB,
My comment doesn’t show God as someone who is spiteful and unforgiving. But rather, one who is just. He deals out what we deserve. Man always has a chance to repent, and Adam and Eve did repent, though after a time here on earth laboring with hard trials.
Ben,
Your comment itself is rather hazy. Honestly, the point I’m trying to make is that Marx (the ideal philosopher of Atheistic Society) was in fact, not an atheist, but someone who was a Satanist.
Take a look here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1121228/posts
And here:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread384357/pg1
I’m not condemning him to hell, but rather simply stating that his ideas were Satanic. And on your comment aobut “Get him there quicker, we Jews don’t like to putz around.” As a Jew, are you that in favor of your fellow Jews, that if even Marx was a Satanist, you’d still side with him because of his Jewish Blood?
dont you all know gods chosen 1000 are in heaven, no ones been or gone there since.
heaven made a cess pool of us – the mars volta
mereoner,
What planet are you from???
Let’s asssume Jesus Christ was an actual living, breathing person.
Let’s also assume the Old and New Testaments are
Completely TRUE text and the emperically proven word of God. Why then do Christians utilize the word “Faith” within this belief system? I.E. – “the mystery of FAITH”. Why not change, everywhere the word “Faith” is cied in christian doctrine, to the word-”FACT”?
In addition, if a Christian God is so loving and benevolent – why is he/she more than willing to deliver so many of his BEAUTIFUL and LOVING (non-Christian)children to an eternity of HIDEOUS and EXCRUTIATING DAMNATION after death? Is it me? Or does this not represent the actions of a truly loving, all forgiving and supremely benevolent being? .
Lastly, Jesus of Nazareth – (supposedly knowing where he was born, lived and died) – probably didn’t have long, straight, light brown hair. As well as sharp, angular facial features and caucasin/pail skin tone.
Oh yeah – (a little sarcasm here. But still an oldie and goodie) – What kind of assualt weapon would HE own? What is about Christians and guns?
Let’s assume that George Washington was an actual living, breathing person, who never told a lie.
I’ve heard as much farce from your secular standpoint than you can actually paint on Religion’s side of things.
There are facts throughout our Faith. We KNOW Christ became Man, and Died for Our Sins. We can attest to that through the documents left by the apostles, the Bible, and even Historians of His period.
Now, you’re like everyone else whose commented here so far. You don’t know one full sentance of Catholic belief, yet still march in tearing down what I believe. God DOES NOT deliver people to Hell. That statement in itself is like saying that a Judge delivers people to prison without a cause. A Crime Must be Committed! When a person transgresses God’s law, they deserve punishment. Like if a person were to commit a crime, they deserve punishment.
God loves us all and His mercy is endless. He is willing to take us back, but only if we willingly come forward and repent.
What type of philosophy guides your life, if you can’t even understand the basic nature of Crime and Punihsment? Answer me that!
God, being God, could have made his creations, i.e. us, as sin prone as he wanted. Apparently, he made us extremely sin prone, so much so that everyone sins repeatedly. Why would he punish us for behaving just as he made us? What kind of a god would that be?
Religious people make me chuckle. Am currently working with a muslim, a mormon, a-some-thing-evangelical, all equally convinced that they are correct. If the jews are right they are all going to hell anyway!
Maybe you should wait until the movie comes out to critique it.. a lot of times trailers can be deceiving, no?
I dont believe in god. I think religion is completly rediculous! The bible started out as nothing but stories told around campfires in 3rd century “B.C” before anyone could ever write. And they have just been passed down since. What makes you believe that they were never changed through these thousands of years. Have you ever heard of that game you play when you are in kindergarden where the teacher whispers something in a childs ear then they whisper it in another childs ear and so on and so on… well by the time that it gets back its NOT the same thing. The bible has been translated in countless languages and redone more than 24 times since the original. So you cant tell me that the crap in that book is real and we should live our life by it. If you just study astrology it will tell you how our universe got here and evolution is how humans got here on earth.
Some of you say, “What proof is there that God exists?” To which some respond, “There is this… and this… and this.” And that is proof to them. What you really mean by the question is “What proof is there that God exists… in MY eyes… that I may believe… or not believe.” For isn’t proof just that. You must believe it yourself for it to be true. There are many historical, convincing proofs that Jesus Christ existed. The very scriptures alone are proof of the fact that God exists. How about some of you trying to write a book with 66 sections and forty different authors. Oh yeah… and have the writing take place over 1500 years. Think any of it will be cohesive? I don’t. Do you want another proof that God exists? Take the nation of Israel. Do you know of any other nation which ceased to be a country and then nearly 1500 years later became a country again within the same borders? I don’t. In most cases, the people would’ve assimilated into whatever culture they had emigrated or been exiled to. 1500 years is a LONG time!
And some of you actually think that man would have a merciful society without God? You haven’t actually been able to convince yourselves of that, have you? That would be worse than the fiction you are accusing the christians of believing. Example after example of “Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely” are everywhere. I thought Paul Xavier’s example of some of the societies that attempted to eliminate any belief in God were very valid. Communism is a great example. They say nearly 50 million people were put to death under that society that was finally ‘free’ from God.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran doesn’t believe that the holocaust took place. I do. History does. But to him it is untrue. Does that make it untrue? Decidedly not. And whether or not you believe God exists doesn’t negate my faith or belief one single iota. I know what I believe. Or I wouldn’t believe it. And I know the very moment I believed. Something changed… in me. Before I was depressed often. After I wasn’t. Before I had no hope. After I did. It all happened in a single moment. Not as the result of reading some periodical or church magazine telling me what to believe or not to believe. I could tell you of event after event which were supernaturally arranged (this is what I believe) in my life, but will that make you believe? Not if you don’t want to. In fact, the scriptures say that you are incapable of believing… unless God gives you the grace (something you can’t earn or work for) to believe. So relax. It’s entirely possible that God for whatever reason has not chosen to give you that grace. Or maybe He did and you decided you’d rather go your own way.
And as far as calling down lightning on the unbelievers or Bill Maher. There were a couple of deciples in the bible who asked Jesus the same question after a town didn’t welcome them… “Lord should we call down lightning on them?” And of course, I’m sure you know His answer. And if I ever thought about calling down lightning, I would be much more afraid that it might strike me instead. I am forgiven. Not sinless. And thank God for that. For there is only room for one God in this world. Two would be one too many… lol!
And I have one final question. If God really doesn’t exist (as you say), why are you on this forum trying to prove he doesn’t? Shouldn’t you instead just be able to ‘rest’ in that fact (if it really was a fact). Hmm… that alone must prove the existance of God!
Xavier,
In order to enact justice, as you are saying God does, he must punish.
In order to punish, God must inflict some sort of pain, suffering, or harshness upon those who have supposedly been unjust.
Anyone who purposefully causes any sort of pain, is either a masochist, or one angry person.
God is spiteful, no matter how you look at it.
Oh, and Douglas,
Although your comment seemed decent and appropriate enough, i found it ironic that in your second to last paragraph, you basically state that because you believe in God, you are better than all those who don’t, because God has given you the grace to believe. This, in itself, is contradictory of one very basic christian belief, and that is that God has given us free will. If we have free will, why is it that God needs to give us the grace to believe something?
And as for the world not being merciful without God, have you seen the world with God? Or even heard of it? Look back into history, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Crusades, the Holy Wars, the witch trials, all resulting in what is probably far more than 50 million deaths, in the name of God, the Christian God. In fact, the only reason killing like this has stopped, is because time has progressed. It is not religion that brings morality, but the progression of time helping to shape preexisting sets of morals into what we hold true today.
AB,
So you are saying that a Judge is a masochist and an angry person because he punishes the murderer and rapist? As I said before, where is your idea of right and wrong? Apparently you live in a society where evil goes unpunished, and well, where good is put to question…
And Douglas,
Thank you for the comment. And in regards to AB, yes, man does have free will. But God does indeed give us the grace necessary to do what we must do in following Him. It’s not a matter of God selecting those whom He wishes to be saved, but rather, us choosing to accept the grace. With God, all thing are possible. Without God, all things are impossible. So necessarily, God is always reaching a welcoming hand out to you. But it’s your choice whether or not to accept it.
Also, this can be backed up in Scripture, where Christ says to the apostles that it wasn’t they who chose to follow Him, but He who chose them.
“You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones that need help?”
— Mark Twain
Well, for all of that. Out of one corner of your mouth, you discredit the Bible because of ‘talking animals.’ And out of the other side, you go on to say man is evolved from the ape. Hence a talking animal… *chuckles with a smile* So the question remains, “who needs the help?”
And I might just take a guess!
Master Paul Xaiver,
On your part, what arrogance leads you to believe that “seeking happiness” is your only justification for exitstence?? What doubtless and blind faith leads your life? Speaking of components of “faith’ but never once questioning on principle!
“Happiness and virtue are no arguments. But evil injustice are no counterarguments.”
– Friedrich Nietzsche
Naturally, men all desire one form of happiness or another. Whether it in a successful carreer, good life, money, pleasure, or God Himself. But in searching for all these things, you’ll eventually realize that since God created all things, He IS the source of happiness, and only in Him may we find true happiness.
I cannot even read more than 20 comments here because I cannot tolerate, any more, at this point in my life, people who are completely and utterly closed minded. I’m willing to bet that most of you here, not all but most, were raised being trained, mostly via family, a certain “religion”. Some of you find your religion later and via other methods, but you find a religion that suits what you think are your beliefs so you commit to that. I’m getting pretty old and this subject has literally fascinated me since childhood. I’ve talked to so many people asking question after question after question. NOT ONCE have I interviewed folks who believed 100% of everything their particular religion taught; they commit nonetheless using various “reasons” none of which have made any sense to me. And it drives me crazy!
I was raised in a strict Catholic home. My mother was raised in an orphanage with her 5 brothers and sisters; she was unable to communicate with her brothers in the orphanage unless it was a special, allowable, occassion. THE STORIES I’VE HEARD AS A CHILD. I could never understand, never, never, never, why my mother was always so loyal to her church after hearing these stories. I loved my mother very much; I followed her lead. I cried myself to sleep countless nights with my photo of Jesus or my cricifix at my side. I prayed to the Blessed Mother and to this day still have a statue my mother bought for her mother while in orphanage. That is a prized possession for me. Trust me, it has more meaning than anyone can possibly imagine.
Still, following my mom’s lead and following the tradition, I was always the outcast in the family in that I questioned, questioned, questioned while everyone else looked at me with a “how dare you” or “I can’t believe you asked that/said that” look. I didn’t care; I don’t care; I still ask. YET, HAVE I RECEIVED AN ANSWER THAT SIMPLY MAKES COMMON SENSE. God gave us all brains and I believe he intends we use them.
66% (don’t know exact figures, but do know I’m close) the world poplulation is “Christian”. What happens to the rest? “You must accept Jesus Christ as your savior or you will not go to heaven”. Hmmmmm. OK. And Bill is wrong, and I am wrong, and that other 33% is wrong. And please clarify….Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ…..???
I’d also be willing to bet, but I know most people don’t have enough GUTS to be honest with themselves, with God, but mostly with the public that YOU TOO ARE NOT SURE. You go with the flow…period. Above it is quicky incinuated that all who don’t believe as YOU DO will be doomed to hell. Mercy ::::shaking the head::::.
I believe in God. A direct connect. I do not know exacly what this movie will be about but I did see a piece on Larry King and I absolutely got so excited. A PERSON WHO THINKS LIKE ME. And he’s got the balls to go out with it! My hero! I wish he was my neighbor so we could talk because that’d be one heck of a conversation. A relief! A facscinating relief!
I have been near death 3 times in the last 6 years. I was in a coma and my family was told to prepare for my funeral. I know what most people don’t know and I am not one tiny bit afraid to die. I am afraid I will die and leave my children before they are ready to completely care for themselves, but I am not at all afraid of dying, or of what will happen to me after death. Has anyone ever considered that you die…period? Why must their be a reward or a punishment? The bible tells us so? How many versions are there of that anyway and how many edits have been made and how many books have been added, removed, etc.?
God bless you all I don’t wish you hell for your beliefs; I respect them. I do live in
America…the free country…comprised of many different people with the right to believe as they see fit.
And thank you God for allowing me, even if I am 45, to finally accept my own beliefs regardless of what anyone else thinks.
I just want to commend Master Paul and say that your refutes were great. I am a devout christian as well as very well educated and have a very happy life and have been wondering something lately. Why are religious forums usually 80% atheists or “agnostic” replies or criticisms. If you don’t believe just go on living your life and let religious people in religious forums be happy. Maybe you question your own beliefs. I am a smart well-rounded person and can accept the fact that there is deffinitely something greater than humans, and the historical evidence of the bible and the fact that most religions are loosely based on the same concepts and at least the same first five books. Most religions exluding buddhism and the Muslims that are popular in cohesive beliefs worldwide understand the same beginning and the same principles of which to live your life.
Also, to someone earlier Hitler was not a christian when he started his failed attempt at taking over the world – he was agnostic, although he was raised catholic and some of his speeches involved speak of a greater being and such, however, it is understood that he was agnostic.
Basically my point is not to convert or bring to light anything to anyone, as someone stated earlier, If you do not want to open your eyes you will never see, or if you don’t want to open your hearts you will never feel what many of us “believers” feel. I have done my own research and come to my own conclusions on this subject and although I try to be as good of a human as I can be I accept that I am not the best. I am good at the business I run, am a good person, husband, citizen, I was an all american athlete and so on. However, all of that would not be what it is if it were not for my faith and that same faith and love that I share with my family. I understand and am greatful for what I have been “given” but also understand that there is something greater and I am not scared to admit that. In all of the things that science has discoverd (I know, my wife is in the medical field), pales in comparison as to what is still unknown. So, I don’t pretend to know everything or exacorbate my knowledge of the bible on deaf ears, rather describe how I arrived at my stance and hope everyone ends up happy, wishful thinking, I know.
God bless and please don’t be closed minded to the existance of God, or ridicule others for their beliefs, it portrays the wrong premise forums like this are created for.
Fascinated – I wish you would read the bible before trying to justify your beliefs against it. When I had my doubts I always read the bible (different translations) or did research and delved into respected theoligans works. Non-christians are not damned to hell. Read the book of revelations – even the gospel yesterday. Every knee shall bow and tongue say his name – If you were brought up in the middle east and never shown Jesus how could a just god damn a non-believer of something that they were never given a chance to believe in. However, if you have been given the chance to believe in Jesus and refute and mock him and his believers then that is a different storry. The people who were never exposed to Jesus get a second chance during tribulation, and are taught the word. Also, isn’t it funny how with the increased capacity of information technology those miracles that I remember happening in south america and europe when I was younger don’t happen anymore. The word has been spread many times over and Non-believers never have enough proof, it is what it is. And to the guy that refuted miracles of the eucharist, stating that it was just science. How does a “bread” and “wine” transform into body and blood and stay intact for over 700 years and then tested and is human blood that Ironically matches that of the shroud of Tourin. Or were christians in the 11th century just 700 years ahead of science to dupe the blood types. Either way I think science can’t explain it and it is still not enough evidence for any atheist.
Also, I watched the trailer to the movie and I think Bill Maher, is free to express his beliefs however, trying to ridicule and degrade any group of people is wrong. And to compare god to Santa is actually hysterical. A human can no more understand how god can do the things he does, as does my dog know how I magically make food apear from a bag, in any instance trying to justify it is futile.
Also, science tries to break everything down as far as it can be to understand it. However, light and vision, the two very things that most conclusions are drawn from are not completely understood. Also, the very basis for earth physics (gravity) is not completely understood. Under atheist reasoning why should I even believe in physics and science in general when the three fundamental elements of these two subjects are not completely understood. I know an object on earth falls at the rate of 10m/s2 but cannot “fully” explain the entire reason behind that so should I just say that gravity does not exist. No, I understand that I am not all-knowing and accept that and accept that gravity (although we don’t understand everything about it) does exist. In quite a similar way I can’t explain god or jesus and never will try to with human reasoning, however I have experienced something greater than I and will not refute it nor try to draw everything to reason. I will accept it, not deny it and live a happy life.
This review about the movie is GARBAGE! Theologians and preists don’t have any better answers for questions regarding the validity of the bibles “fables” than anyone else. it’s always “faith”, or some other nonsensical answer which usually is some circular arguement just so you can “keep the faith”, regardless if everything you just heard was a sham.
I’ve always found that people with some internal weakness find comfort that someone is looking out for them, because life without it somehow is meaningless to them. I’ve even heard religious people ASK non religious people “how they have morals”. Like only people who read the bible know that murder, rape, and lying is wrong.
It’s just so pathetic.
Religion is a scam, no matter which one you believe in. The end result of religion isn’t being a better person, it’s all about being better than the person who doesn’t think like you do, and that’s the truly sad part about believers. It’s all about being selfish, even if it’s for a non existant “god’s” love.
Phil – What would that be? An internal weakness of human conscience, which is still only hypothesized – funny how it involves the word science and yet is unproven by that very field, however we accept that we have a conscience. That is what distinguishes us from other animals. Your entire rant is only trying to put people down with out actually having any logical explanation why. I studied law and engineering, and the logic you apply to your arguments would not hold up in either field. And reading your sentences hurts my head.
Also, if helping people out is being selfish please explain. No one here is or can condemn you for your beliefs however you ridicule us for ours. My belief however, is hinged on the fact that I did open minded research and have drawn my own conclusion. Your non-belief is hinged on the fact that maybe you are trying to be better than someone, otherwise, why all the ridicule and angry tone in your jumbled sentences? All I am saying is if you don’t believe, then why are you in a religious forum, wasting your time and energy? I don’t go to atheist forums and ridicule non-believers, I don’t go to ford mustang forums and tell them that corvettes are better, etc. If you truly don’t believe then go on about your life and be happy, however if you feel you are missing something and are always depressed and angry I know someone who can help.
Phil, Amen brother!
Believer: why do you insinuate I haven’t read the bible or spoken with any supposed experts on the subject? Apparently you do not understand. THAT BOOK AND THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE A LICK OF SENSE TO ME NOR HAVE ANY ANSWERED MY VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS (some asked again, above…with no answers of course). Should I continue – after 45 years – to waste my time like you to “justify” YOUR BELIEFS? No.
If you expect that I or anyone else here believes you are not missing ANYTHING, are NEVER depressed, and oh my, NEVER ANGRY….you’ve lost your mind. I know you’re not happy all the time, nor are you completely fulfilled nor can you hold your temper (as you show so well here). That’s another “common” reply with your types. Don’t answer direct questions; instead, jump around them and try the brainwash technique by TRYING to make others believe any of their ‘temporary’ sufferings are due solely to not “believing”…as YOU DO. Everybody hurts….sometimes.
This man has a brain and I agree with him:
Thank God! That’s right, God! Direct connect.
“Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.” [pg. 153, Calaprice, Quotable Einstein]
“I believe in a Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings.” Telegram to a Jewish newspaper, 1929; [pg.147, Calaprice]. (Spinoza believed the more one studies and understands the universe the better one understands God)
“I can not accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I can not prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar.” [pg. 58, Mayer, Bite-size Einstein]
“Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man…In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.” [Letter to a child who asked if scientist pray, January 24, 1936; pg. 152 Calaprice]
“I cannot believe that God would choose to play dice with the universe.” or sometimes quoted as “God does not play dice with the universe.” [pg. 56, Mayer]
“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.” [Albert Einstein, The World as I See It American Institute of Physics Online]
In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of the priests.” [pg.153 Calaprice]
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
“I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God.”
[Albert Einstein, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
“What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind.” [pg. 56 Mayer]
“The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.” ["Why Socialism" by Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein Online]
“The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path – that I cannot know.” [Letter to Conrad Habicht in 1905, pg. 196 Folsing, Albert Einstein: A Biography]
Did you just say anything that you believe or can all you do is cut and paste quotes from others. Real original. Also, I did say that you do not understand the bible from your misunderstandings that I have already touched upon. You are right I am not always happy and always right and never stated anything of the sort. Then again, I never claimed to be. I won’t resort to a Wikipedia-esque cut and paste war, rather leave this at what it is – a cyclical, “show me emperical evidence”, type discussion. Once again, my question remains,
“If you don’t believe in a god, then why are you wasting your time in a religious forum?”
Shouldn’t you be living life to the fullest because this is the only one you get? Rather than disproving a concept that cannot possibly be disproved?
Also, unless you are