Issues on Life
November 25, 2008
Why do we kill infants? Because we don’t want pain? Or the work that involves the care of a child? Let the children live! What if your mother had killed you? You would not be here to make the choice of what child lives and what child dies. No one has that choice. What makes people feel this way? Selfishness. How can others help stop the killing of innocent infants? By standing up for the right to life! Voting for pro-life governors, mayors, and presidents is the answer. They’re the voice of the people. We have to stop this massacre of infants. We should not just brush this of and say “This is not any concern of mine”. It is! And we all have to stand up for the right to human life. Abortion is the exact same thing as killing a grown man or woman except they can not yell stop! God has a reason for putting a child on this earth. No one knows the exact reason but whatever it maybe, it is important. For God does not make mistakes; everyone He puts on this earth is meant to have a life. No matter how short or long it is, we can not destroy it. God cares for each and every individual, so stand up for life! Make God proud of you!!!
Master Paul Xavier
Illustrious marceg
Miss Angela Rose
Lady Kerin
mjlovesballet
November 25, 2008 at 5:30 PM
AMEN SISTER! haha
November 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Great post! Welcome to CatholicDiscussion Lady Kerin!
November 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM
I agree welcom e Lady Kerin…..being honest and strong….don’t beat around the bush…
November 26, 2008 at 8:11 AM
Thank you everyone!!! lol
No i don’t usually beat around the bush…lol
November 29, 2008 at 10:36 PM
I agree completely but i hope you don’t judge everyone who ‘disposes’ of a human life. Sometimes people can’t handle whats been layed upon them. For example if someone had been raped and the mental wounds made it impossible for them to keep the child or the person in question might die if they didn’t terminate. I am completely pro-life but would hate to think that people judge others.
November 30, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Then I hope, too, that you believe capital punishment punishment is also wrong…
November 30, 2008 at 12:02 PM
I wrote about your “Issues on Life” and have posted it on my blog. I welcome a logical response…
November 30, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Elizabeth,
Naturally, to be pro-life, you have to respect life at all its stages. Even if the life of a mother is at stake, is it right to kill a child for her safety? Let’s say, if you’re mother had dangers with your pregnancy, and it risked her health. What if she had aborted you for her safety? Something to contemplate.
Debbie, I responded on your blog. But if you feel like picking a fight, you are more than welcome to leaving a comment here. Thank you. (Some derogatory and inappropriate suggestions in her post, just a warning for viewers.)
November 30, 2008 at 10:34 PM
“Oh, and yes, I am Pro-Life, but I necessarily do not support Palin on those grounds. So don’t start drawing connections about something you don’t understand.”
Sorry, but I didn’t imply that you support Palin at all. And I don’t blame you for wanting to distance yourself.
This was a horrible comment you made to all women, “Even if the life of a mother is at stake, is it right to kill a “child” for her safety?” Yes, of course it is. It might not be right for ME, but it is a choice that other women should be allowed to make. You can always have another fetus. The fetus can’t have another mother.
You and I will never agree, but I was just wanted to see if you could logically argue your case. (“God’s will” is not a logical argument.)
December 1, 2008 at 12:04 AM
I have known many women who have had abortions. One was because the mother’s pelvis wasn’t strong enough to support the child and it would shatter and kill her and her unborn baby. In that case i am for abortion. To save one life instead of losing both. If it was just because the mother might have had minor difficulty during the pregnancy and no lives at stake then I’m completely against abortion. The circumstances vary with everyone. Oh by the way, my mother did have problems when she was pregnant with me… she risked her life and nearly died. I’m just saying it’s not good to judge the women who have had abortions.
December 3, 2008 at 3:51 PM
No you are right Elizabeth, we can not judge a women who has had an abortion; But still we must not side with her for under any circumstances it is not right to kill. Elizabeth have you ever heard of Saint Gianna Beretta Molla?
December 4, 2008 at 5:17 AM
It isn’t right to have an abortion, no. But what if both mother and child would die? Isn’t it then right to have an abortion and save one life instead of losing both? Even the Catholic Church says that it can excuse an abortion under that circumstance.
Yes, i have heard of Saint Gianna Beretta Molla. I bought a book about her a little while ago but haven’t gotten around to reading it yet.
December 4, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Well, why shouldn’t the mother at least try to have the child, to give that child a chance at life?
Not to argue for the sake of arguing, but could you quote the source where the Catholic Church actually permits abortion in those circumstances? From my understanding, She has always forbidden it.
Here is a citement from the Vatican’s site:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
December 4, 2008 at 12:34 PM
The Catholic Church does not say that it can excuse an abortion under certain circumstances Elizabeth. Though the Catholic teaching does allow them to obtain a hysterectomy, and that’s just as bad in my opinion.
With Saint Gianna, the doctors said that if she tried to give birth to her child then she would die as well as the child. The doctors gave her three choices: an abortion, which would save her life and allow her to continue to have children; a complete hysterectomy, which would preserve her life, but take the unborn child’s life, and prevent further pregnancy; or removal of only the fibroma, with the potential of further complications. Wanting to preserve her child’s life, she opted for the removal of the fibroma. Since she was a doctor she knew that this could lead to her death but also would save her child. She died of septic peritonitis day after the birth. This is what I would call true sacrifice. How many women do you know would do this?
I would highly recommend reading that book, she is a great saint.
December 5, 2008 at 3:55 AM
When i say ‘a chance of both mother and child dying,’ i don’t mean just a vague assumption that the pregnancy is going to be difficult but actual facts. There are many circumstances where the mother and child would die. I hate going into the human body talk but sometimes a part of the mother would shatter or burst and the baby would die as well as giving the mother internal bleeding or something similar with the result of death. If both the lives are at stake with just a guess instead of cold hard facts then an abortion would be out of the question, if it was me i would risk my life just like my mother and my grandmother. A lady i knew had her baby form in a tube that leads to the womb instead of in the womb. As the baby grew the small tube was about to burst and she was in extreme pain. If it had burst both she and the baby would have died. Instead, the doctors had to cut out the baby (impossible to save) in order to save one life. As heartbreaking as this is i support this decision. It was either, lose both or save one. Please let me clarify that I ONLY support abortion when there is not even a .01% chance of both living. If there was a .01% chance that the child would survive i wouldn’t even consider abortion. Don’t you agree with saving one life instead of losing both?
December 5, 2008 at 9:22 AM
Elizabeth,
Not to sound so cold and cut to the chase, but the Church Teaches that ALL human life has to be accepted, from conception to natural death. So any act, whether or not to save the life of one and not the other, which results in the abortion of a child, is murder. Why? Because that child is a living breathing human being. And it must be given that chance at life.
Just a quick question, what is your stance on Euthanasia? As in Terry Schaivo’s case. Are you for the removing of a breathing/feeding tube which supports life in that individual?
December 5, 2008 at 10:04 AM
So you would let both die when it could be prevented?
I’m not 100% sure on what euthanasia is exactly so i can’t say.
December 5, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Euthanasia is the killing of an invdividual permaturely. I.E., someone in a coma, or like situation, who cannot respond, but are alive by breathing and through a feeding tube.
December 6, 2008 at 2:01 AM
Personally, I don’t support it.
December 6, 2008 at 8:02 AM
Hang on, you mean life support? Sorry.
December 6, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Master P. You are a misogynist. And you obviously have never been a parent. First, you would KILL the mother in order to save a helpless infant. Not a practical matter, especially when the mother can give $$$ to your church. The infant cannot.
And Lady K. I don’t think a woman giving her life for her child is the ultimate sacrafice. Exactly who will raise the child then?
You shouldn’t judge people into you’ve walked in their shoes. What hypocrites.
December 6, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Dam,
Out of curiousity, have you been a parent either? If not, then don’t come questioning my views, as you clearly are in the same field as me. And it’s not about the money. What version of ‘Christian’ religion did you grow up affected by? Clearly a bad example…
There is also the option of adoption. Especially in the sense of abortion. Though of course it is best for the child to have its natural parents.
Elizabeth,
Yes, like life support. It’s the same with abortion, you can’t make a ’special’ decision to kill one and not the other. Child or the mother? Or if both might die, yet both are alive? Do you have the right to kill?
December 6, 2008 at 11:19 PM
“Out of curiousity, have you been a parent either? If not, then don’t come questioning my views, as you clearly are in the same field as me. And it’s not about the money. What version of ‘Christian’ religion did you grow up affected by? Clearly a bad example…”
What do you mean, “you are clearly in the same field as me.” Is this another typo?
Funny you should ask about my religious upbringing. My mother raised me as a ….drum roll please…a CATHOLIC! Yep. I went through the sacraments of baptism (as an infant) and even suffered through confirmation.
Transubstantiation…does that even MAKE SENSE?
Ummmm. Yes, I have two children, but I’m not giving you my address. Priests have had enough bad press.
December 6, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Paul,
I must confess that i don’t understand what your talking about any more.
“If both are going to die, why not save one?” is all I’m asking.
What i get from this is that you are in favor of letting nature run its course and won’t intervene AT ALL. Abortion is a ‘no’ for all circumstances and even when it could be prevented you would let both die instead of saving one. Is this correct?
December 7, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Yes Dam,
I was going to ask you the same question. Have you been a parent either???
Oh and when you asked the question about who would raise the child??
I would have answered like Paul. There is always the option of adoption.
December 7, 2008 at 8:59 AM
http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=13
Dam,
If you watch this link on you may change your opinion on abortion. And I would not suggest someone under 12 to watch this…
December 7, 2008 at 9:40 AM
Wait. Before I watch your link (I’m sure I’ve seen it before), let me say this, which I’ve been saying all along: I do not think abortion is right for me. I don’t even kill spiders in my house. BUT, I think it is wrong to decide for other women. There are too many bad parents. There are too many unstable people. If a woman wants to have an abortion in her first trimester, what gives YOU the right to decide for her? That fetus cannot survive on its own. It’s completely dependent. It has no memory, no language skills, nothihing.
For you and I to argue when “life” begins is moot. I already believe it begins with the fusion of the egg and sperm. From that point, an embryo is alive just as bacteria and viruses are alive.
I think it must be a difficult choice already for a woman. And it’s a personal choice. So why would you get involved in someone else’s affairs, Lady K., unless there’s an ulterior motive (i.e. heaven) for you?
December 7, 2008 at 5:38 PM
I may be off what your saying but your saying you should just let people d do what they please. If that’s so should I let my friend use her choice to commit suicide or should I try to find her help. If I know my friend is destroying her life with illegal drugs should i let her do it because its her body or should I try to help her. Just because I don’t know these women doesn’t mean I want to see them fall. I want to lift up these women who feel they have no other options.
December 7, 2008 at 5:38 PM
Yes, it is correct. For what right do we have to decide the fate of another life? None at all.
Dam,
I find you amusing. You have the same spirit I have. We won’t get anywhere, will we?
1st: I never decided that women cannot have abortions. I am simply stating why I believe it is wrong, and basically that it is wrong. Every human individual is endowed with a free will, and the mother makes that decision.
2nd. We don’t agree on the same thing in regards to when life starts. Numerous times on your blog, you’ve refered to humans as ‘animals.’ So clearly, unless you’re a vegatarian or something…you’d have no issue with butchering us off.
3rd. In defense of Lady Kerin, she isn’t doing anything for the motive of heaven. She doesn’t even have to. The human child conceived in the womb IS LIFE, and that is what she is defending. Frankly, I do not care what you women do with yourself. Have a peircing, or go have premarital relations. I DO NOT CARE! What I care about is the human life that is borught into this world. If you conceive a child, be responsible for it and raise it. We live in such a wasteful society that we’ve come to the point of even throwing away the products of reproduction (children) into the garbage! This is you’re ideal atheistic world! You are already living in it. And the only issue you have with Christians (primarily the Church) is that we’re a danger to your comfort zone. You’re ideal society is based upon living for hte present, because there is no afterlife. And what better way to live in the present than to live for yourself? Wether it be using one another for sexual pleasures, or cheating people out of their savings, or what not. Why? Because it makes me feel good. It’s a sick world Dam, and your way of thinking has brought it about.
The reason why there is so much confusion and war in this world is because of a lack of Love. As I said above, your atheistic way of thinking is what has brought us down to such a dark level, where religion and atheism collide. You have hte right to be offended by the word Christmas, and if I mention anyhting about being offended by your negative attitude towards Christians, I am told to shut up. I will not shut up. As long as I have breath within me I will fight this ‘agenda’ of death that your way of life is bringing about. If you want to raise your children without God, go ahead. But dont come over here, to MY blog to tell me how I’m wrong. I will continue writing. IF you want to discuss and intelligently debate, I am open to that. But if you just going to come here to continue attacking us for actually sticking with what we believe, then don’t even bother.
Pax Christi.
December 7, 2008 at 6:17 PM
Yes MJ, I agree. We do have to step in for other people. But Dam is saying otherwise…
December 7, 2008 at 8:32 PM
Hey Paul…
I’m the Red Violin girl from the forum (yep, the one with the crazy sig pic).
I have to say, thank you for standing up for life.
Dam, I personally have several people in my life who have had abortions, and ALL of them, be they pro-life or pro-choice, say that it is THE worst thing they have ever done. As a very close friend of one post-abortive girl in particular, I can say that it has been so difficult to see her going through the post-traumatic stress disorder that is an effect of the abortion she had 5 years ago. No one who gives birth goes back and says, I wish I would have had an abortion.” Maybe they wish they would never have gotten pregnant, but no one, in retrospect, wants an abortion. My friend wishes that she would have kept her child; this is evident in her SEVEN atonement pregnancies, that have all resulted in miscarriages or pre-term births. None of her babies have lived.
Also, no one wants to have an abortion, period. A girl isn’t saying to herself, “I can’t wait to get into a crisis pregnancy situation so I can terminate my child! Woo=hoo!” The woman in a crisis pregnancy sees abortion as a way to escape her problems, but sadly, it only magnifies them.
Adopted children are no more or less special than natural children. A close friend of mine was relinquished at birth, by a teenage girl who loved her enough and wanted her to have two parents enough to give her up.
Lastly, my argument is this: People may say, “I would never personally get an abortion, but I don’t want to tell other people to do.” When asked why they wouldn’t have one, many answer, “I couldn’t live with myself after abortion.” Okay, here’s my point: What makes you think that we [humankind] are so different from one another? If you wouldn’t wish for yourself to go through the inner turmoil of knowing you had an abortion, why would you stand by to see other people make choices that will cause them unspeakable pain?
December 7, 2008 at 8:56 PM
Welcome Rosa! And thank you! Any fan of Yul Brunner is a dear friend of mine!
I agree with your statement here, especially the last paragraph. Thanks for the feedback!
December 8, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Master Paul, your true Christian spirit is coming through. Your older, indoctrinated readers won’t see it, but your young ones will. They will move away from your church. I will help them.
“It’s a sick world Dam, and your way of thinking has brought it about.”
We have lived with religion for thousands of years. Let’s really try my “way of thinking” (since you pretend to know what it is). Let’s abolish religion, then, and see what the world is really like.
I used to believe that we should live peacefully with all religions (the weak need their security blankets), but you, with your frantic, misogynistic and illogical arguments, have convinced me that religion really is hampering humanity.
Be careful of those parishioners you trust so much, including the ones that bind, torture and kill.
December 8, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Rosa. It’s called “self-righteous.” You (the church) believe that you have the right to DECIDE for those women–and, yes, it is a terrible choice they must make. But you cannot speak for ALL women that it wasn’t right for them. You cannot tell women that they are being punished (with miscarriages) for the abortions they’ve had. You cannot, cannot speak for others nor cannot you decide which consequences (i.e. failed pregnancies) are a result of which actions (abortions).
Oh brother. Our educational system has let you folks down.
December 8, 2008 at 12:16 AM
“Frankly, I do not care what you women do with yourself….” You women readers—are you going to let this guy talk to you like this and tell you what you should do with your body if you are raped? He doesn’t even think YOUR life counts as much as an unborn child? Risk your life—the fetus must live. Yes, yes. The church cares so much for life—fetuses, infants, children—that it has covered up for years abuses in the church. Give. Me. A. Break.
I doubt you’ll even print this comment. You know you’ve talked condescendingly to all women.
December 8, 2008 at 3:35 AM
I agree Rosa. Nice way to put it.
December 8, 2008 at 10:11 AM
Sorry Dam I am going to let Paul say that. He’s right on the dot, if a person wants to do things to their own body and mess up there own life that’s their choice. We can help them make the right choices but that’s all we can do. What I don’t want is for a preborn baby to be punished for her/his mother’s actions. There are so many couple who pray and hope for a baby and can’t get pregnant yet some are telling us that babies mean nothing. Who cares what’s growing inside your womb needs you, who cares that he/she might be the doctor to find a cure for cancer. It doesn’t matter because its inconvenient for the mother to have the baby.
And you say the education system has failed me. Not really, I’ve learned how to debate and stand up for what I believe. And before you say I must be some sheltered person who has no clue of the real world don’t. I’ve lived internationally and attended international schools with very liberal angendas. Sadly in the liberals hopes to convert me to their cause they just make me stronger in mine.
December 8, 2008 at 6:10 PM
Dam,
To your “self-righteous” comment:
First off, you don’t know me. You have never met me, nor I you. I find it offensive that you call me “the Church” and self-righteous. I’ll be the first to admit that I have screwed up my life so many times, and that many of my first impressions or judgements of people and situations have been so wrong. My arguments against abortion, however, I must keep. I WILL not condone something that hurts women and kills children. Who said that I’m even Catholic?
I am NOT saying that my friend is being punished for her abortion. That hurts me to think that I came across as feeling that way. I was saying that her abortion had extremely terrible physical effects on her that have made her unable to carry a baby to term, not to mention the emotional effects that only she can know. Yes, I believe that humans are given freedom of choices outside of the law. I just don’t want to see someone, especially someone I love, get hurt, especially at the expense of another life. (Not to mention the potential in the life that is being lost).
The other thing, the education system let me down? Are you even serious? I am very politically liberal in most aspects, with the exception of abortion. I choose to be pro-life because of what I have seen of the world.
Dam, I’m really wondering why you keep on posting here. Do you like arguing? I’m not going to push my rethics down someone’s throat. Why are you pushing yours down mine?
I was stating what I believe. I’m not expecting you to agree with it. I’m just putting what I believe out there. I doubt that I can change your views, and I doubt that you can change my views.
Honestly, while I find your arguments annoying, I am not trying to be mean. You are free to live your life the way you choose: all people should be. However, I don’t believe that people should be allowed to hurt, mutilate, kill one another. The reason that I am so strongly against someone having the “choice” to abort is because it leaves out the “choice” of a fundamental member of the situation: the fetus.
These are my views. I wish you well, Dam; though I don not agree with all of your views, I can see where you are coming from.
December 9, 2008 at 9:12 AM
“Master Paul, your true Christian spirit is coming through. Your older, indoctrinated readers won’t see it, but your young ones will. They will move away from your church. I will help them.”
If you think that any young person who listens to Paul is going to fall away from the church then you are sorely mistaken. If anything it will make them stronger to see that ‘young’ people are standing up for their faith and it will encourage them to do the same.
You are so judgmental on us dam, you say things about us that can only be known if you have had a good friendship with this person and a chance to find out their character. You have had no such acquaintance with us therefore your views on who we are and what we think are completely off target. You embarrass yourself by constantly making these false assumptions.
December 9, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Before I start I have to say a couple of things; I am not a Catholic but I study religion (in many instances) yet at the same time the Catholic faith somewhat confuses me (that isn’t an accusation or anything, just the truth), I am also on technical grounds not pro-life (technical in that I don’t assume to know what is right for others, but I would council not to have an abortion and have brought my children up in a manner in which I am sure they wouldn’t have an abortion.)
I have a question as I am confused with the position on Obama (I am making assumptions here as if this has been addressed I haven’t seen it, so if my assumptions are off I welcome that aspect as well.) I understand that Obama is pro-choice and therefore it was not appropriate (or right) for those of the catholic church to support him. However, I have always been under the impression that because life begins at conception for the church there is no if ands or buts with the religion and therefore McCain would have been wrong to back as well? (He supports stem cell research.) Is this a case of picking the smaller evil? (or am I totally missing some point?)
Thanks in advance for any insight that can be offered. (No judgment, just curiosity if allowed.)
December 9, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Terra,
I have to agree with you on the political stance in regards to Obama/McCain. The either way, Catholics are forbidden to vote for someone who is pro-choice, because of their stance against life.
As for McCain, he is the lesser of two evils, yes. But it seems to go overlooked, that no matter what, he is still an evil. The reason why people voted for him (Catholics) is because he was the only other person (after Obama) who would win. So, casting a vote for McCain would hopefully lead towards the election of a ‘lesser evil,’ rather than voting for someone fully ‘good’, who didn’t even have a close chance to winning.
Personally, I did not vote for the McCain/Palin ticket. Why? Because he is still an evil, even though his views may be less than Obama’s.
Lady Kerin’s video shows everything…
Can we vote, in the right mind, for someone who openly supports this?
http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=13
It’s sick.
And frankly, I haven’t been saying Abortion is wrong because I don’t want people to have one. I’ve been saying its wrong because its the precious human life of a child, who cannot yet live on its own, torn from its mother’s womb, and brutally murdered. God Forbid some teenagers beat Baby Seals to death on a beach…yet we allow people to go about killing their own children…
Dam,
You know…maybe we should have abortions for baby seals, in order to save them the misery of being beaten by people?
Or have them for chickens, who live on farms and will be subject to growing up without their mothers who will be sent to the slaughter houses?
Yet of course, it doesn’t have to be for all chickens…
You’re understanding of life is a disturbing one…
December 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Rosa, thank you and welcome. Terra, I will let Paul answer that one.
Dam, I am going to answer all the comments that I can in this one.
NONE of us can make you believe what the church and us Catholics believe. YOU have to want the truth. All we can do is Pray for you and believe me we will pray.
Also when you said this “He doesn’t even think YOUR life counts as much as an unborn child.” You don’t know how wrong you are. Paul is one of the best men I know and I know he cares as much about the women as he does the child. But as he said before, God gives life and takes life and we should not mess with his will. WE have no right to take life away. As I said in my post. “What if your mother had killed (aborted) YOU.” Dam you wouldn’t even be here to argue. But I do not wish your life away. I still love you as a sister in Christ should. Even though I find it hard. Life is precious from Conception to NATURAL death. We have no RIGHT to say other wise. God gave us free will, yes, but He knows we know right from wrong, he gave us that knowledge. He expects us to use it in situations like these.
You don’t know this but deep down inside your soul Dam, you know the Catholic Church is the true church and that what Paul and I speak of is true. The reason why you don’t think so right now is because you are set in your ways, whether you think so or not. We can’t change the way you think, but God can. NEVER underestimate God.
Dam you might as well have said that comment to me. For I also believe the way Paul does on this issue and I know a LOT of other people that do as well. Why do you even keep coming to this blog? To evangelize us? If you are, you can stop trying. You aren’t getting anywhere and never will, for we know our faith, we strive for the truth, and we trust in God. Our faith is our life. If you want to fight you picked the right place. For as I said we know our faith. You’ll find yourself stuck in a spiritual battle, a battle you’ll have to try very very hard to avoid. But as Catholics we don’t look for battles we only state our faith. If someone starts a fight then yes we will stand up. I did not write that post to pick a fight. I wrote that post to evangelize others on abortion, to wake them up. Abortion is wrong. You can’t say “I do not think abortion is right for me,” and say its right for someone else. It is never right to kill. Do you even think abortion is killing???
Answer that question and I’ll leave you in your own opinion from now on, unless you still want to argue. I don’t but if you do then… believe me you’ll have your work cut out for you. I do sincerely hope you don’t want to argue, but if you do, then know and remember this, I’ve made my Confirmation and received the graces God gave me for defending my faith and I have Our lord and Our Lady on my side, I put my trust in them. I also know you made your Confirmation but it obviously didn’t mean much to you. Also if you haven’t noticed already I take my faith extremely seriously.
Oh and Dam, you are very amusing. And you may not know this but, you’re actually helping to strengthen my faith. Way to go, thanks!!!
May the Holy Family Bless Us and Keep Us!!!
All for the Immaculate!!!
December 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Paul thank you for the insight, but I don’t thank you for the video. I could have gone my whole life without experiencing that. I am kind of glad I had a piece of the puzzle correct. (Attempting to learn others is quite difficult.)I cannot completely agree, but I appreciate the ideals of the pro-life argument.
December 9, 2008 at 1:35 PM
This is Lady Kerin’s brother Master John. In answer to your statement on Monday at 12:10, “We have lived with religion for thousands of years. Let’s really try my “way of thinking” (since you pretend to know what it is). Let’s abolish religion, then, and see what the world is really like.
I used to believe that we should live peacefully with all religions (the weak need their security blankets), but you, with your frantic, misogynistic and illogical arguments, have convinced me that religion really is hampering humanity.”, I will say that your MARVELOUS idea has already been tried by a group of men, who did away with both the Church and the government of their country. That country is France. For years under the rule of men like Danton, Robespierre, and Napoleon, France was torn by civil war, terrorized by bandits who did not think twice about commiting atrocities because they believed that there was no afterlife, God, Heavenly reward, or fiery punishment. France experienced a great terror because of lawless and godless men, who believed in the same things you appear to believe in. Wierd, isn’t it? In the words of Charles V to Martin Luther, ““I am born of the most Christian emperors of the noble German nation, of the Catholic Kings of Spain, the Archdukes of Austria, the Dukes of Burgundy, who were all to the death true sons of the Roman Church…Thus I am determined to hold fast…For it is certain that a single monk must err if he stands against the opinion of all Christendom. Otherwise Christendom itself would have erred for more than a thousand years . Therefore I am determined to set my kingdoms and dominions, my friends, my body, my blood, my life, and my soul upon it.” If Charles V said that, he who had much more to lose than i do, than I, who have much less to lose, must also profess my faith, stand firm against heretics and atheists, and defend my faith with my very life.
In Christ and His Mother,
Master John.
December 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Wait a minute, Master John, I appreciate that you find some of the arguments to be repugnant (which is completely within your rights, and the rights of others.) However, I must say that I take issue with the idea without god we fall into anarchy (or “who did not think twice about commiting atrocities because they believed that there was no afterlife, God, Heavenly reward, or fiery punishment.”
These are the thoughts which we cannot base ourselves. I do not believe in a god, and I have morals quite similar to your own (assuming the major morals within Christianity as a whole). Also there are quite a few Christian faiths that do not have the exact same idea of the truth as you do, and for some of those this idea would also be offensive. If you mean to be offensive, I suppose that is also within your rights. However, I assume that being a man of faith and someone with some intelligence it is right and just to remind you that for those that you are trying to convert applying this type of thought doesn’t farther the cause.
I am hopeful that wasn’t your intention, but without showing the reaction within myself (and likely of others) we cannot hope that the thought process will not change. I am well aware that if you are Catholic I am for damnation, but I am also well aware that isn’t absolute. (If I chose to repent, and if I chose to accept God, and so forth the situation would change.) Therefore, it is always wise to treat even those that we do not agree with some respect, even as we challenge their views.
December 9, 2008 at 2:18 PM
(sorry didn’t proof read- one of my biggest areas that needs work on)
I am hopeful that wasn’t your intention, but without showing the reaction within myself (and likely of others) we cannot hope that the thought process will
notchange. I am well aware that if you are Catholic I am for damnation, but I am also well aware that isn’t absolute. (If I chose to repent, and if I chose to accept God, and so forth the situation would change.) Therefore, it is always wise to treat, even those that we do not agree with, some respect, even as we challenge their views.December 9, 2008 at 5:26 PM
Terra, no where in Catholicism does it say that ANYONE is damned. Also, it doesn’t say that anyone who professes to be Catholic “has it made”, salvation-wise, necessarily.
You can go to Heaven, regardless of whether or not you are a Catholic, whether or not you are a Christian, etc. The Catholic belief is that salvation is between God and the person’s most inner heart. I don not believe that you are condemned, not in the slightest.
Catholicism is not like the highly evangelical sects of Christianity that believes in the “once saved” concept. Or, that the people who have not had a “saving” experience are damned. This is not our way of thinking.
It makes me sick when people try and tell one another who is and who isn’t going to Heaven, and I hope that I am never one of the people who tries to decide this. In my belief, this is up to God.
December 9, 2008 at 5:31 PM
I was reading some of the earlier posts, and I saw the comment about hysterectomy.
Lady K-
As to your comment about the hysterectomy being as bad as abortion, I have to disagree. Yes, it’s not something that allows life. But it isn’t killing a person. It’s preventing conception, yes, which I disagree with, but when a person’s life is at stake, I say save the person and remove the uterus, don’t keep it in and let the woman die.
December 9, 2008 at 6:05 PM
Rosa, I appreciate your kind words. I am confused though you believe that someone that doesn’t believe in god can go to heaven? (I am a bit lost on that one – I thought that was central to all of the different faiths?)
December 9, 2008 at 7:14 PM
No, belief in God is not something that serves as a “ticket to Heaven.”
In all Christian beliefs I know of, works and beliefs do not save someone, only God can do that. No person is worthy of Heaven, but God’s mercy redeems them so that they may enter Heaven.
My personal belief is that the spirit of God lives in the heart of everyone who has love in their heart; God is Love. God’s love saves, and His love for all of His children, whether or not they profess Him, is the same. It’s like a parent whose child either doesn’t know him or her, or whose child has rejected him or her. They aren’t going to stop loving their child. And God doesn’t stop loving anyone. Therefore, He’s not going to condemn a person just because they never really knew him. I don’t believe that anyone, in their deepest heart, would reject a loving God.
I’m not sure if my views are 100% endorsed by Catholicism, but at this point in my life, based on personal experience, this is what I believe.
December 9, 2008 at 7:34 PM
Well Rosa that is a lovely belief system, and I appreciate it. I have never heard such a belief before, but I hope to hear it again… Kind thoughts going your way
December 9, 2008 at 7:39 PM
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December 9, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Thank you, Terra.
I am very touched that you posted my statement on my beliefs in your entry.
Kind thoughts your way as well… I wish you joy and good will.
=)
December 9, 2008 at 10:43 PM
God loves us all, yes. But we cannot say that God’s love actually saves every human individual. To understand this, we must understand the Church’s statement of “There is no salvation outside the Church.” These words are not something to be taken lightly, nor to be slung back at Her with the excuse of being ‘judgemental.’ What is meant in that statement, is that the Church is the GUARANTEED way to salvation. If you follow Her teachings and guidance, you will surely attain salvation. Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Now, in reference to the human individual, we will understand how it applies. People have this natural tendency to have the idea of a Giant Teddy Bear in the sky…which is exactly what God is NOT. They tend to throw out the idea that God would condemn someone to Hell, because…well…because He loves us, doesn’t He?
That is true, He DOES Love us. But, there is another side to this… Like Rosa said, the Parental side of God. His Fatherly Love, and Justice. Something which people LOVE to ignore…like a parent, He corrects us…He Guides us…He Loves us…but He punishes us. A child which has utter disrespect for the laws set down by its parents IS punished. Right? Whether it be “Do your homework.” Or “Don’t answer back.” These are things which children get punished for if they go against.
And the reason why God punishes them is because He loves them. How can this be? Well, a parent still loves their child if they ground them. Don’t they? The same with God, He allows us to make the decision of whether or not we will sin, and depending on that decision, we warrant merit or punishment. God does not punish those who do not know Him. (for the sake of not knowing Him though,) yet He punishes them for their sins. (We cannot excuse ourself of the knowledge of sin…we each are given a conscience…we each have the laws of God inscribed in our heart…there is no excuse.)
So finally, reaching a conclusion, you cannot use Rosa’s statement as an excuse to do what you want free of ‘religion.’ The difference between someone who is ignorant of God, and someone who has heard of Him/Heard His call, and rejects Him, is the deciding factor in Salvation.
December 9, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Terra, I think you’ve handled all these comments quite well. You are a good representative for the faithless.
Unfortunately, I’m not nearly as smooth nor patient with people who believe in Santa, I mean Satan. This blog just reinforces my personal beliefs in the delusional traits of those in the RR. I came back over to your blog (and WOW lots of comments to me I didn’t know were here) because Lady K left me a message on my blog, asking me if I believe humans have a soul. Of course, I’m sure she knew my answer already. Perhaps it was just bait.
I’m only going to address a few of these comments. There are too many to sensibly address, and quite frankly, Lady K you made me dizzy with all the “argue”/”don’t argue” redundancies.
This is typical RR: “You don’t know this but deep down inside your soul Dam, you know the Catholic Church is the true church…” What? Hey, which one of you said, you don’t know us….blah blah blah…. You embarrass yourself by constantly making these false assumptions.” Does this count as one of those assumptions? I know, I know you can read my mind and god’s mind!
1. No doubt you are against capital punishment since you are pro-life. Thank goodness.
2. Pro-choice means YOU AND I have no choice. It means YOU make the choices for you and your neighbors.
3. Rosa, Your comment “I don’t believe that anyone, in their deepest heart, would reject a loving God.” Where exactly is this loving god of yours? He’s not on my planet. There’s no evidence that a loving god exists, especially with the abuse of children that has occurred in your church. Where is your loving god when a little boy is sodomized?
4. Master Paul: McCain is “still an evil.” You mean he’s 100% evil? Does that make sense? What is this a Batman movie?
5. Master P: You miss the point. I’d say YES! to abortions for baby seals—IF it is their right to decide.
6. “Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Master P. You must know that you insult other faiths and world views.
7. I’m going by memory here. Someone mentioned “the truth.” Another silly statement—as if catholics or ANY of us know TRUTH. Know what I mean? There are so few and they’re mostly a product of science.
8. Yes, I was once catholic and confirmed, so I have already been where you are. I’m not trying to understand. I have already understood and have reasoned my way out of church.
9. Pray for me? Do you look better in the eyes of your fellow catholics if you pray for a soul that has fled?
I completely understand your “pro-life” argument. I do see your side. I don’t agree. We could go round and round for decades. All this arguing does is fortify both sides. I’m sure you’re good people in your own way. I’m good in mine. It’s been an interesting mind exercise.
December 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM
God reveals Himself to His children in His own time. Whether it is in early childhood or the final moments of death. I’m not saying that people should go out and sin, throw their regard for God out the window and hurt one another. Not at all. But all of this talk of salvation being confined to this that and the other thing isn’t the way to reach out to people.
I’m going to share a somewhat personal experience because I believe it is relevant to this.
As a child, I would lose sleep worrying about Hell; I threw myself into a deep pit of despair over the salvation of a loved one who was leading a very bad life. One night, I was in so much pain and turmoil over this person’s soul that I honestly felt despair I can only imagine is of Hell. I don’t know how long this lasted, but I remember wanting to scream; no sound came out. I was laying in my bed, crying and writing in this mental pain, when I began to beseech God. I said His name over and over, and then, it was as though a tangible presence of peace and hope and comfort came in and wrapped itself around me, shielding me. After a while, I fell asleep with peace and hope in my heart. I believe that this experience was sent to me by God, to show me His true self, as a loving Father and the bringer of hope.
The Book of Psalms says that God knew all of us before he knit us in the womb. As His children, and He the King of Heaven, this makes us citizens of Heaven. Isn’t every heart yearning to return home? I can only speak for myself when I say this, but from what I have seen of the world, I don’t believe any child, (when the sin, pain and bitterness of this world are laid aside,) would reject their loving Father.
Now, as to God’s love being able to save… God, all-powerful, has the power to save through His love. He also, however, gave us free will. If someone chose not to accept His gift of salvation, they could choose Hell if they wish. But honestly, who would be so masochistic? When the heart of each person is laid bare from the evil that haunts our world, I cannot understand that they would choose Hell.
Yes, God punishes. He is just. Parts of the universe are set up in accordance to His justice; for a basic example, sin causes pain. However, the way I see it, God’s mercy outweighs His justice. Is was not fair of just that Jesus (blameless) should have died for us (sinners.) But, as John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” I believe that mercy and love are more powerful than justice. 1 Corinthians 13:13 “There remain then, three things: faith hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
I don’t believe that salvation can be achieved without Christ. BUT, don’t misinterpret me here. Christ died to atone the sins of the world, in order for us to be able to be saved. If not for Christ, no one could be saved. What about His words on the cross, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”? He died for the world, even though the world didn’t see it. As I’m typing this, a thought came to mind. Imagine a child lives his life without knowing God. He finds himself in the brilliance and glory of Heaven, and he is overjoyed and in awe of this. He asks another soul who is there with him, “Who brought me here? How did this happen?” The soul answers, “Jesus did this. He died for you, so that you might come here.” The child is in complete gratitude and worship of his Savior, and realizes what a truly awesome God reigns; a God who saved him even though he did not even know His name.
Anyhow, I realize that none of this is to be taken lightly. Sin is no joke. But I will quote 1 Timothy 4:10 :”For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially those who believe.”
December 10, 2008 at 11:01 AM
I’m going to leave you in your own opinion from now on. It’s no use trying to talk to someone who doesn’t want to listen and to stuck up in her own opinions and what she wants to believe in.
And no when I asked you if you even thought people had souls. It was not bait. I was only trying to fully understand what you said on abortion. Believe me I almost totally understand where your coming from now.
December 10, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Yes indeed, God died to save us all. But the process of Salvation is in the free will, whether or not we choose to follow the law of God in our hearts. Whether born Christian or not, the law of God IS WITHIN our hearts, and we know when we trangress it. Only with frequent sin do those laws become hazy, and our conscience disappear.
This being said, and keeping in mind free will, man can choose hell. Though not with the intention of “I want to go to Hell.” I mean, who ever says that? Rather, it is in sin in which they decide to go against God.
God does not condemn someone for not knowing them. Rather, for going against Him. Going against the Law which he inscribed in their heart. Let’s say, you are traveling in a foriegn country, and you do not know their laws. Yet still, you end up breaking one. Are you ultimately guilty? Not necessarily, but you still have broken the law, and are subject to punishment. The same with God.
Dam,
I have nothing further to say to you, except that you mention Lady Kerin’s comment was ‘possibly bait?’ Give me a break, with all the posts and comments about us on your blog, I’d deem you the one who is baiting someone.
I’d continue discussing with you, but in overall understanding, to what point and purpose would it be? Thank you for your time.
December 10, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Dam,
I totally see what you’re saying about where is a loving God when children are abused. I’ve thought about that quite a bit myself, actually. I don’t have all the answersm and I’m not pretending to. It’s a harsh, evil wordl sometimes, and people do evil evil things. But these people have independent choices; they are the ones doing the evil, not God. I don’t know why these things happen, but I do believe God is very very very angered and offended by them. I wouldn’t be able to serve a God if I thought He wasn’t outraged and angry at the thought of little children being raped and killed, especially when the perportrators are claiming to be “of God.” But I don’t know all the secrets of the universe; I do believe in Satan, and I believe the he is the cause of these horrors, God is not.
I don’t have all the answers, Dam. I do understand your anger at the people who have hurt and abused and killed in the name of God; my personal life experience has shown me a God who is loving and good, and I know that He is not who those people say He is.
I am sincere when I say that I wish you well. From what I have seen on your blog, you seem like a compassionate, caring person and a loving mom. Peace to you =)
December 10, 2008 at 3:20 PM
I think what Dam is asking for is for explanations as to why one thing is OK and the other is not. While it is harsh, she is asking what many people do ask. (In regards to not only this religion, but sometimes other Christian based religions as well.) She sees inconsistencies where you do not (assuming “normal” thoughts.) I.E. If we think abortion is wrong, as it is what god has written (via not killing) how can we then be OK with capital punishment? There is a lot more aspects of this, and quite a lot of scriptures that can be recalled on both sides of the arguments. However, it appears to me that she is rather suggesting it doesn’t make sense to her because they are both killing, and thus to be against abortion (on the word of god – not in personal feelings) one should also be against capital punishment (on that same word of god). It is a moral dilemma that many people do not explore in its full capacity. We cannot say things like god punished the sinners, because in that same vein he punished the children of the sinners as well… Hopefully that sheds a little light?
December 10, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Dam,
If someone is out there praying for you, you won’t have a chance of escaping heaven. You’ll realize in the end… as much as you hate to even imagine the possibility of that now.
December 11, 2008 at 9:04 PM
Thanks Elizabeth.
December 11, 2008 at 10:44 PM
I am against capital punishment because it is killing. Terra, I’m a little confused with your point about God punishing the children of sinners; were you referring to something specific? (I’ll go back and read the older posts to see if I missed something).
December 12, 2008 at 3:49 PM
A large portion of pro-life people (that are pro-life based on biblical views not on personal beliefs), are for capital punishment. For a lot of us (of the faith and not of the faith) it seems contradictory. As for specifics in regards to god punishing the children of the sinners (I was just making a point), but our periods and birthing pains explained (via Eve) would be a good example.